The unrealisticness of dialogue... : V - Skyrim

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:25 pm

I don't really mind the random dialogue, which is really monologue, and that's what actually bothers me.

If only I could only retort, these random comments would be awesome! Like tell the little brat that I'll kick his ass if he doesn't run home to momma. Or tell the old hag that I only stopped to stare cause she's so friggin ugly. Or stuff like that. But instead all I can do is ignore it and be on my way, cause if I kill them, there's trouble.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:50 pm

Although it would be nice if NPCs had more variety in dialogue, i do think that even less could be used more effectively. It would be kind of cool if NPCs just acknowledged you with a smile, a scowl, a nod or a simple "hello" and went on their way rather than launching into their single line of dialogue.

Or a respectful "Dragonborn". That would get less annoying than what they do now and make more sense.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:25 pm

I don't live in a city. I'm rural folk. When I pass somebody in the street, I talk to them. It is quite natural for people to speak as they pass you in this game because they haven't any city as large as todays metropolis in the Elder Scrolls. They didn't happen in the real world till technology allowed better sewer and transport networks. People didn't come on mass from all round and combine as strangers like they do now. Citys were as social as the smallest village until very recently. So recent in fact that I still remember them being like that in my childhood.

Good point. In fact, I`ve known some people from the country and they`re quite saddened at how most everyone in cities simply don`t talk to each other and if you say `hello` sometimes, they look at you as if you`re crazy.
This is also true for people from other parts of the less developed world who come to busy cities and suddenly find it very lonely because no ever talks.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:12 pm

There are very few RPGs out there that actually have realistic dialogue, but none that are open world. Games like the Baldur's Gate games and KoTOR have realistic dialogue, but these are of course games with a set path so it is obviously easier to accomplish realistic dialogue.

The dialogue wouldn't be as repeditive if people wouldn't say anything unless you manually talk to them.

In Skyrim, I get annoyed by the fact that every time you pass by someone, they always just HAVE to say something. From guards calling you to a sneak-thief to the children who talk so much smack and you can't do anything about it. Also, the thing people say is realistic too. Women talking about how they want a man to take them away; Maven Black-briar claming that your bothering her even though you didn't acknowledge their existance; "Do you get to the Cloud District very often? Oh what am I saying, of course you don't."; "I'm 11 years old and I can take you."; "What are you lookin' at? I'm not afraid of you. You know, even if you are my elder."; "I thought adventurers were supposed to look tough."; "I bet my papa could beat you up."; "I ain't done nothin'."; "Come to chat with an old woman, hmm? Do your good deed for the day?"

Like wtf lol. In real society, people rarely will say anything to you and won't stare you down when you pass them by. I'm just speaking my mind with this and looking to see if anyone else shares this line of thought or like the dialoge how it is.

I agree in this game i feel often humiliated by the way npc,s talk too you and you cant do anything about it , Necromancers are saying too you when you have a Flame astronauth " that spell looks dangerous keep your distance " while they cast the same spell like hokerrs.
Even in the mage guild they start complaining if you cast it there i mean wtf , like i said its all about humiliation thats the way beth goes
humiliation you in the game humiliating you for selling you a broken game they are humiliating you for selling you a broken game and
than grab the game of the year award lol

yes this is real they want you too get used too it so it is easyer for them too continue humiliating you .

really the NPC dialog scripting is the worst i ever seen another indication of a rushed game yes Skyrim looks beautifull yes maybe they should switch too making painting instead of games .

Encounter: Companions just slayed a Giant - Aleah the huntress runs up too the player and say,s Well thats taking care of none thanks too you...Player say,s Well i did my best ..who are the companions Aleah Explains the story ..Players say,s Sounds like a waste of time ..Ahlea say,s Well if you think your better why dont you talk too Kodlack ....O,0 didnt i just say its a waste of time Lol
Companions make me Laugh bunch of lamers

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:24 am

Or they can group the current selections to only be played after certain circumstances are met, then reduce or eliminate the ones that don't make sense:

For example:

It's fine for the guards in whiterun to ask me if I fetch mead for the companions when I start their quest line. However, once it is complete I should not hear that line ever again.

I think that's just down to sloppy flagging of conditional dialogue. If the underlying system is anything like Oblivion it can be fixed fairly easily once the CK is released or by Bethesda themselves if they can be bothered.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:20 am

"Have I reminded the Dragonborn that I work at Belethor's shop in the past hour? I don't think I have!"

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:25 pm

Honestly, I think part of the problem with the scripting is I get the impression they reinvent the wheel with their AI to an extent each game iteration, rather than improving their system and making it more complicated and detailed.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:49 am

"Have I reminded the Dragonborn that I work at Belethor's shop in the past hour? I don't think I have!"

Don't make fun of people with developmental disabilities. Belethor is a great and kind-hearted man for hiring that kid.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:17 pm

What so you don't say hello over and over again everyday?

"hello" is something else entirely than 'I work for Belethor at the general goods store.I work for Belethor at the general goods store.I work for Belethor at the general goods store."
I wouldnt mind if they just said 'hello' or 'go away'.

I do mind that incessant brainless pvssyring of their life story.
Skyrim dialogue is among the worst I have ever seen in any game.
Its easily in the top 3 of most annyoing, mindless, incessant, superflous, grating and a lot of other words like that.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:38 pm

A lot of these comments are really comments that require a response, so if you stop to respond, but can't cause the game won't allow it, it just ends up in a staring contest and that gets kinda awkward after, oh, about 3 seconds.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:33 am

You just have to heave a big sigh sometimes. Like when a guard deals the killing blow on a dragon, then says, "My cousin's out fighting dragons, what do I get? Guard duty!"

It seems like when you are in range the guards dip into a random pot of possible phrases to say to you. It's totally unnecessary. It would even be just as informative if they talked among themselves.

You've got to hand it to devs like Rockstar, who make you feel you're in a world that would be going on without you there.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:52 am

The dialogue has a lot of problems but, honestly, Oblivion and Morrowind weren't any better. Less annoying, yes, but they weren't any less repetitive. Voice acting is probably 100x more expensive than writing text alone, so by the arguments that some people are using Morrowind's dialogue is completely inexcusable. Having 20 NPCs repeat the same 15 lines of dialogue is no better than Skyrim, it's just less in your face. Skyrim is a huge game and its largely non-linear. Writing good dialogue for a game like Skyrim is significantly harder than writing good dialogue for a game where every action the player takes is more or less predetermined. Could it have been a lot better? Absolutely. Just like every other area of the game could be a lot better. What you're seeing is the consequence of time + money. People blaming it on developer laziness, indifference, or stupidity are just utterly lacking in objectivity and ignorant of the challenges of game design.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:35 pm

The dialogue has a lot of problems but, honestly, Oblivion and Morrowind weren't any better. Less annoying, yes, but they weren't any less repetitive.

So they were better then?

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:54 pm

TheMagician, that's a sensible apology, but ultimately it seems like a bad design choice. If they can't afford to record more dialogue, they could have just opted to make the looped phrases play only once a day or something. The phrases in Morrowind were sparse too, but I never got tired of hearing "We are watching you... scum".

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:04 pm

As much as im annoyed with the "guards knowing who you are" and all that, i like the fact that at least something about you is recognised. Although the idle pvssyr is beyond annoying. Especially for the children.
Im quite convinced the lines for the children were recorded on purpose to piss the players off.
"oh look im a teeny weeny girl and im not scared of the big man in devil armor, i could even beat him up! Why? Because im bloody immortal, thats what."

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:24 pm

The dialogue has a lot of problems but, honestly, Oblivion and Morrowind weren't any better. Less annoying, yes, but they weren't any less repetitive. Voice acting is probably 100x more expensive than writing text alone, so by the arguments that some people are using Morrowind's dialogue is completely inexcusable. Having 20 NPCs repeat the same 15 lines of dialogue is no better than Skyrim, it's just less in your face. Skyrim is a huge game and its largely non-linear. Writing good dialogue for a game like Skyrim is significantly harder than writing good dialogue for a game where every action the player takes is more or less predetermined. Could it have been a lot better? Absolutely. Just like every other area of the game could be a lot better. What you're seeing is the consequence of time + money. People blaming it on developer laziness, indifference, or stupidity are just utterly lacking in objectivity and ignorant of the challenges of game design.

I really do not know how to describe NPC's having only one line that they repeat over and over and over when you get near as anything else than lazyness.
Well, I could call it other words but then Id get too rude.
Honestly, how hard is it to set a flag so that their initial dialogue only gets said once, like in Oblivion?
How hard is it to think of other things to say as 'looking to protect yourself, or deal some damage'?

Lazy, sloppy, bad design.
Like so many things in the game, its clear that its designed to be 'fresh' for one single playthrough only.
That is inexcusable for a TES game.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:39 pm

So they were better then?

In some ways, yes. In others no. I find the 'drive by' dialogue annoying, too. You had to listen to the same conversations between NPCs in Oblivion over and over again, they just didn't force you to participate. In that way, Skyrim is worse. In Morrowind, all the NPCs had a lot more to say...but most of them said exactly the same thing as 10 other people. Guards said the same thing as commoners who said the same thing as shop keepers. And in a way, it was just as bad, because you didn't know if they had anything new to say unless you clicked on the link. Same repetition, just a different method of delivery.

TheMagician, that's a sensible apology, but ultimately it seems like a bad design choice. If they can't afford to record more dialogue, they could have just opted to make the looped phrases play only once a day or something. The phrases in Morrowind were sparse too, but I never got tired of hearing "We are watching you... scum".

There are obviously ways that it could have been done better. They clearly decided that working on a different aspect of the game was more important. They tried to make the NPCs seem more alive and it didn't work very well. The repeated dialogue is anologous to NPCs walking around in circles in the market all day. That's not realistic either and it's just as repetitive. They could have spent a lot of time giving NPCs better sandbox routines, too, but they didn't. That's what happens when you have a budget.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:18 pm

I think there is a cultural aspect to this as well. I live in New England. I live in a small seaside town in New England. Where I live if you are walking down the street and you see someone passing you do not knowit is polite to nod. It is impolite to say, hello or Good morning if I do not know you. Speaking to me implies you want to speak to me more. A 'hello or good morning' should proceed into both parties stopping to talk and exchange pleasantries.

If I never met you...if I do not know you...we have no pleas tries to exchange on the street. That is unacceptable because by speaking to me without an obvious "introduction, need for information, or a sheared experiences" you are implying we have met before, we know each other, and you want me to stop. Forcing me to think "Do I know this person?" or "Why can't I recall meeting this person WHO IS talking to me?"

So in Skyrim where people just say crap to you when you walk by it is EXTREEMLY annoying. Because the first time I meet them I do not know any of these people, and each additional time they just spout gibberish that does not even amount to hello.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:08 pm

In some ways, yes. In others no. I find the 'drive by' dialogue annoying, too. You had to listen to the same conversations between NPCs in Oblivion over and over again, they just didn't force you to participate. In that way, Skyrim is worse. In Morrowind, all the NPCs had a lot more to say...but most of them said exactly the same thing as 10 other people. Guards said the same thing as commoners who said the same thing as shop keepers. And in a way, it was just as bad, because you didn't know if they had anything new to say unless you clicked on the link. Same repetition, just a different method of delivery.

No one disagrees there, but the point was the Oblivion system was either as good or better in all areas. They should have expanded on that, rather than give us what we got here. Heck, they could even have reused some of the VA work from oblivion and added that to Skyrim's VA work. I think the problem many of us have, is that Skyrim seems to not be improving on what came before, but tossing it out and replacing it with stuff that's is only as good or worse than what came before.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:05 pm

I really do not know how to describe NPC's having only one line that they repeat over and over and over when you get near as anything else than lazyness.
Well, I could call it other words but then Id get too rude.
Honestly, how hard is it to set a flag so that their initial dialogue only gets said once, like in Oblivion?
How hard is it to think of other things to say as 'looking to protect yourself, or deal some damage'?

Lazy, sloppy, bad design.
Like so many things in the game, its clear that its designed to be 'fresh' for one single playthrough only.
That is inexcusable for a TES game.

Allow me to clarify for you the difference between a valid criticism and an ad hominem attack:

Valid criticism: "The dialogue is repetitive and gets annoying."
Ad hominem: "Developers are lazy, sloppy and bad designers."

The second is not valid criticism and shouldn't be brought up at all in a discussion about game design. You have no idea what the developers are actually like as people or the challenges they face when developing a game like Skyrim. It's pure, subjective speculation based on a need to feel superior. I can talk about design issues without attacking people. It's not hard. Ad hominem attacks are just lazy, sloppy, and badly designed arguments.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:38 pm

No one disagrees there, but the point was the Oblivion system was either as good or better in all areas. They should have expanded on that, rather than give us what we got here. Heck, they could even have reused some of the VA work from oblivion and added that to Skyrim's VA work. I think the problem many of us have, is that Skyrim seems to not be improving on what came before, but tossing it out and replacing it with stuff that's is only as good or worse than what came before.

It's not "as good or better in all areas". It's as good or better in many ways, and in some ways it is not as good.

Here's a way in which it is better: the NPCs do not have drive by dialogue.

Here's a way in which it is worse: the conversations which take place between NPCs which the players overhear are stilted and unnatural because they are assembled at run time from smaller fragments. If you're going to have conversations that the players overhear, they should at least sound natural and convey interest. In Skyrim, these overheard coversations between NPCs are far superior.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:07 pm

There are very few RPGs out there that actually have realistic dialogue, but none that are open world. Games like the Baldur's Gate games and KoTOR have realistic dialogue, but these are of course games with a set path so it is obviously easier to accomplish realistic dialogue.

The dialogue wouldn't be as repeditive if people wouldn't say anything unless you manually talk to them.

In Skyrim, I get annoyed by the fact that every time you pass by someone, they always just HAVE to say something. From guards calling you to a sneak-thief to the children who talk so much smack and you can't do anything about it. Also, the thing people say is realistic too. Women talking about how they want a man to take them away; Maven Black-briar claming that your bothering her even though you didn't acknowledge their existance; "Do you get to the Cloud District very often? Oh what am I saying, of course you don't."; "I'm 11 years old and I can take you."; "What are you lookin' at? I'm not afraid of you. You know, even if you are my elder."; "I thought adventurers were supposed to look tough."; "I bet my papa could beat you up."; "I ain't done nothin'."; "Come to chat with an old woman, hmm? Do your good deed for the day?"

Like wtf lol. In real society, people rarely will say anything to you and won't stare you down when you pass them by. I'm just speaking my mind with this and looking to see if anyone else shares this line of thought or like the dialoge how it is.

Agreed x9000...

If anything it doesn't comment enough on how you progress in the game

"What do you do, fetch the mead?
"No, I've been Harbinger for some time now"

Also agreed x9000... There is none at all, and it's really sad..... Just shows how much this game has de-evoloved into an action adventure more then an RPG...

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:51 am

Bethesda team did much better in Oblivion; at least there, the NPCs random dialogue was tolerable and they noticed your accomplishments.

Whiterun is my normal place to stop and sell things. Ever since the day my character stepped foot into the city, the dialogue never changes. My first stop is BattleMadiden’s, I then work my way around and finish selling at the Skyforge.

This is what happens on my route…

Ysolda: “It’s a find day with you around.”

Nazeem: “Do you get to the Cloud District very often? Oh what am I saying - of course you don't”

Ahlam “Looking for my husband, Nazeem? Check the Jarl’s backside, that’s where he usually stuffs himself these days.”

Olfrid Battle-Born: “Olfrid, patron of the great clan Battle-Born.”

Brenuin: “My favorite drinking buddy! Let’s get some mead!”

Amren: "Ever tried mercenary work? Might suit you.”

Braith: “What are you looking at? I’m not afraid of you, you know, even if you are my elder.”

Old hag: “Come to chat with an old woman, hmmm? Do your good deed for the day?”

Guards: (Anything that spews out of their mouths).

Sigurd: “I work for Belathor at the General Goods Store.”

Ok now I need to store stuff in my house, on my way to Breezehome, I get….

Ysolda: “It’s a find day with you around.”

Nazeem: “Do you get to the Cloud District very often? Oh what am I saying - of course you don't”

Ahlam “Looking for my husband, Nazeem? Check the Jarl’s backside, that’s where he usually stuffs himself these days.”

Olfrid Battle-Born: “Olfrid, patron of the great clan Battle-Born.”

Brenuin: “My favorite drinking buddy! Let’s get some mead!”

Amren: "Ever tried mercenary work? Might suit you.”

Braith: “What are you looking at? I’m not afraid of you, you know, even if you are my elder.”

Old hag: “Come to chat with an old woman, hmmm? Do your good deed for the day?”

Guards: (Anything that spews out of their mouths).

Sigurd: “I work for Belathor at the General Goods Store.”

Reminds me of that episode in “Buffy: The Vampire Slayer” where she can hear other peoples thoughts and eventually cannot turn it off. Yeah that is how I feel except I do not need to read their minds to hear it.

I played numerous other games and the NPCs would only speak if you spoke to them. Would be nice if the developers implemented that in the next ETS game.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:33 pm

It's not "as good or better in all areas". It's as good or better in many ways, and in some ways it is not as good.

Here's a way in which it is better: the NPCs do not have drive by dialogue.

Here's a way in which it is worse: the conversations which take place between NPCs which the players overhear are stilted and unnatural because they are assembled at run time from smaller fragments. If you're going to have conversations that the players overhear, they should at least sound natural and convey interest. In Skyrim, these overheard coversations between NPCs are far superior.

As a system, I think the assembled dialogue is actually better. The problem with it? Some of those components were stupid and it needed more tweaking in terms of programming. As a design concept though, it adds a tremendous amount more to the game because the conversations don't have to be so highly scripted (in a literary sense). Rather than completely throw it out, they should have worked on improving it, including adding unique snippets to NPCs and making sure a given NPC stayed in character.

It had some of the brain-dead stuff we see in guard conversations (though this is perhaps slightly improved). Why did people in Oblivion go on and on about mudcrabs? Who thought that was a good idea to even include as an option in the dialogue? I get the impression a lot of this inane crap is in TES games because someone in development thinks it is funny.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:36 pm

its a game, voice overs cost money

money ends, so u can't have millions of lines

its svcks but its reality

thats why MW had so many IN depth quests....

IT WAS ALL TEXT BASED WITH NO ANIMATIONS OR VOICE OVERS AT ALL

a fact a lot of the lunatic MW fans seem to forget all the time.