The unrealisticness of dialogue... : V - Skyrim

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:03 pm

its a game, voice overs cost money

money ends, so u can't have millions of lines

its svcks but its reality

thats why MW had so many IN depth quests....

IT WAS ALL TEXT BASED WITH NO ANIMATIONS OR VOICE OVERS AT ALL

a fact a lot of the lunatic MW fans seem to forget all the time.

Bethesda isn't exactly hurting for money. You'd think they would put forth a bit extra for their flagship title.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:52 pm

Allow me to clarify for you the difference between a valid criticism and an ad hominem attack:

Valid criticism: "The dialogue is repetitive and gets annoying."
Ad hominem: "Developers are lazy, sloppy and bad designers."

The second is not valid criticism and shouldn't be brought up at all in a discussion about game design. You have no idea what the developers are actually like as people or the challenges they face when developing a game like Skyrim. It's pure, subjective speculation based on a need to feel superior. I can talk about design issues without attacking people. It's not hard. Ad hominem attacks are just lazy, sloppy, and badly designed arguments.

Ok I think I understand.
Ill try to hone my debating skills so Ill get better at it.

Im not trying to attack anyone by the way, its just my opinion. Maybe I assume that as a given too much.

But you see, when I try to explain to myself why the dialogue is repetitive and gets annoying I can find no imaginable reason.
Clearly anyone who has played the game more than once or more than lets say 50 hours will find these issues.
It seems to me that these kind of things are or should be equally obvious at the design stages.
What am I supposed to think, that the game is deliberately designed to last only a single playthrough? I get that impression sometimes with other parts of the game and its not one I like very much.
I really cannot come to any other conclusion than that they just did not bother. That it wasnt a priority.
I qualify that as lazy.
Harsh? Yes. Could I be wrong? Of course.
But I just cannot for the life of me figure out why the dialogue is the way it is without thinking that they just did not bother to make it better.

It really has nothing to do with superiority or anything like that, as I said its just my subjective opinion.
Im not a gamemaker, but I have seen them perform better at this in the past.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:52 am

Bethesda isn't exactly hurting for money. You'd think they would put forth a bit extra for their flagship title.

I DO agree however that they should hire less 'famous" voices and more talented voices (so they get more lines for their dollar

)

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:22 pm

As a system, I think the assembled dialogue is actually better. The problem with it? Some of those components were stupid and it needed more tweaking in terms of programming. As a design concept though, it adds a tremendous amount more to the game because the conversations don't have to be so highly scripted (in a literary sense). Rather than completely throw it out, they should have worked on improving it, including adding unique snippets to NPCs and making sure a given NPC stayed in character.

It had some of the brain-dead stuff we see in guard conversations (though this is perhaps slightly improved). Why did people in Oblivion go on and on about mudcrabs? Who thought that was a good idea to even include as an option in the dialogue? I get the impression a lot of this inane crap is in TES games because someone in development thinks it is funny.

In theory it's a better system. I would love to have a game where NPCs could have actual conversations dynamically generated by the game that was relevant to the context of recent/current events. Yes, they should continue that line of development. If it's not show-ready, though, then scripted dialogue is still going to sound better.

Skyrim's drive by dialogue is an attempt, I believe, to add more 'pvssyr' to the game in a way that involves the player: it makes the towns noisier and makes the player aware that the NPCs are aware of them. It's the exact same reason that they added movement to NPCs. Having your NPCs stand in the same place all day waiting to have conversations with the player is obviously not very realistic, so the developers started making them wander around aimlessly. It's still not realistic, but it's more realistic, and it makes towns seem more alive.

It's obvious that the drive by dialogue mechanic is not well-implemented in Skyrim and should have been dropped or modified. Is it a design issue? Yes. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have tried it or that they shouldn't try to improve it. In this regard, it is identical to their attempt to dynamically assemble conversations between NPCs. It's a line of development they should continue to refine and explore and, in situations where it works, it should be included.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:55 pm

I DO agree however that they should hire less 'famous" voices and more talented voices (so they get more lines for their dollar :tongue:

)

Well, they actually did get a few versatile people this time, but as I said earlier in the thread, they seem to have an issue with directing among other things. I don't understand why they would get some people who can do many different voices, and have them use the exact same voice for several different NPCs.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:34 pm

For starters, walk down a busy sidewalk. Count the number of times people openly give you lines.
Now go on Skyrim and walk through town (passing by people just as often and close as you did on the sidewalk).

You'll notice a huge difference.

The odd greeting (1 in every 15 npcs you pass close enough to) would be fine.
The guards might (1 out of 3 visits on average) give you a line upon entering the town, like "stay out of trouble", or "welcome to , or "welcome to of <guild faction>" Provided that you are leader of said faction. DB and TG excluded.<br /><br />As for accomplishments, like killing Alduin or the possibility that you are the listener and killed the emperor or that you are a nightingale. Such things would be rumers, and such things you may hear being whispered between npcs who were already talking when they see you. By npcs talking to each other, I don't mean the ones that are talking for the sake of you listening so you get a quest from them and not every time either. Maybe 1 out of 5, on average, would switch the conversation topic to a whisper over rumors.<br /><br /><br />This isn't some monumental task. It is quite doable. This game may be open world but the quests are quite scripted, the conversation choices are finite and so are the quest out comes (most have only one outcome while some have 2). Even the completion of a radiant quest could be used as a trigger for a change in dialog options if they so choose to implement such things. It's very doable.</div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741562"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1420.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/1420.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1420.html">+++CAZZY</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3403</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:04 pm</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <div id="p3741563" class="post bg2"> <div class="inner"><span class="corners-top"><span></span></span> <div class="postbody"> <p class="author"><img src="http://www.gamesas.com/styles/proFormell/imageset/icon_post_target.gif" width="11" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" /> » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:35 am </p> <div class="content"> <div class="blockquote"><div class='quote'>...It really has nothing to do with superiority or anything like that, as I said its just my subjective opinion.<br />Im not a gamemaker, but I have seen them perform better at this in the past.<br /></div></div>Well, you're right in one way: it was an issue of priorities. Fixing the mechanic fell lower on the list than fixing other areas of the game. The developer's priorities do not match your priorities. They don't usually match mine, either.<br /><br />It's fine to be disappointed in the way a game is implemented and point out the design issues but it's also safe to assume that 90% of all the complaints that players have would have been addressed if they'd only had enough time and money. Developers don't sit on a finished game for 6 months admiring thier handiwork. They work hard up until the very last moment, and the last 6 months are the months they work the hardest. Do they made bad decisions? Obviously. Would they fix them if they could? Obviously. There's no need for personally attacking developers. I can guarantee you most of them are far more intimately aware of the problems with this game than most of the players are. They do what they can with the resources they have and hope for the best. Just like everybody else.</div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741563"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1688.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/1688.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1688.html">Sabrina garzotto</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3384</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:58 pm</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <div id="p3741564" class="post bg1"> <div class="inner"><span class="corners-top"><span></span></span> <div class="postbody"> <p class="author"><img src="http://www.gamesas.com/styles/proFormell/imageset/icon_post_target.gif" width="11" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" /> » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:01 pm </p> <div class="content"> <div class="blockquote"><div class='quote'>Well, you're right in one way: it was an issue of priorities. Fixing the mechanic fell lower on the list than fixing other areas of the game. The developer's priorities do not match your priorities. They don't usually match mine, either.<br /><br />It's fine to be disappointed in the way a game is implemented and point out the design issues but it's also safe to assume that 90% of all the complaints that players have would have been addressed if they'd only had enough time and money. Developers don't sit on a finished game for 6 months admiring thier handiwork. They work hard up until the very last moment, and the last 6 months are the months they work the hardest. Do they made bad decisions? Obviously. Would they fix them if they could? Obviously. There's no need for personally attacking developers. I can guarantee you most of them are far more intimately aware of the problems with this game than most of the players are. They do what they can with the resources they have and hope for the best. Just like everybody else.<br /></div></div><br />Again, its not meant as a personal attack, but as my subjective opinion.<br />I didnt name any names or call anyone lazy, I called one specific element of the game lazy, and I probably should have used a different word or added that its only my opinion.<br /><br />Possibly there is also some culture clash going on here, us Dutch really arent used to the social niceties that for instance the English use a lot and are often considered rude by other peoples. Conversely, we tend to find the ritualistic manner of speaking of the English world (the P's and Q's) to be rather insincere. Its a culture thing maybe but I have no problem with adapting for better understanding.<br /><br />Your points are valid and noted and Ill consider them in the future.<br />I cant do better than that <img src='http://www.gamesas.com/images/smilie/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':smile:' /></div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741564"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1932.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/1932.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1932.html">Cccurly</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3381</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:18 pm</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <div id="p3741565" class="post bg2"> <div class="inner"><span class="corners-top"><span></span></span> <div class="postbody"> <p class="author"><img src="http://www.gamesas.com/styles/proFormell/imageset/icon_post_target.gif" width="11" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" /> » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:29 pm </p> <div class="content"> <div class="blockquote"><div class='quote'>Like so many things in the game, its clear that its designed to be 'fresh' for one single playthrough only.<br /></div></div>That's exactly my feeling as well. It shows a lot when you look at NPC interaction: Everything is scripted. Everytime you enter Markarth you will see the murder scene, everytime you enter Solitude you will see the execution, and so on and on. It's fun and makes the cities feel alive in your first playthrough, but once you realize it's the same thing over and over again, the game gets awfully linear, repetitive and lifeless.<br /><br /><div class="blockquote"><div class='quote'><span style='font-size: 24px;'><span style='color: #FF0000'>IT WAS ALL TEXT BASED WITH NO ANIMATIONS OR VOICE OVERS AT ALL</span></span><br /></div></div>Morrowind had voiceovers and animations. Not for the actual dialogue, but for some greetings and general ambient NPC muttering. I wish they had stuck with that system and made good use of the voice actors by expanding these ambient voices.</div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741565"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1397.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/1397.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1397.html">Leanne Molloy</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3342</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:09 am</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <div id="p3741566" class="post bg1"> <div class="inner"><span class="corners-top"><span></span></span> <div class="postbody"> <p class="author"><img src="http://www.gamesas.com/styles/proFormell/imageset/icon_post_target.gif" width="11" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" /> » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:42 pm </p> <div class="content"> If you're critiquing the dialogue based upon conversations in your everyday life then you'll be let down every time. You cannot simulate the random personalities that make up the 30 people who live on the same block as me, let alone the thousands who live in the same city. In Morrowind I've heard the same line of dialogue "Wealth beyond measure outlander" maybe 30-40 times and it hasn't bugged me in the least. The same is true for Skyrim. <br /><br />Also I don't understand the yearning for every guard to recite your resume to you. How realistic is it for every guard to know that you are the listener, thieves guild master, and hardbringer while also knowing you're the dragonborn? Especially in an age without electronics or any means for an accurate way for information to travel. The guards aren't on flipping facebook liking your status about how you just became the Hardbringer.</div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741566"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1994.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/1994.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1994.html">Albert Wesker</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3499</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Fri May 11, 2007 11:17 pm</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <div id="p3741567" class="post bg2"> <div class="inner"><span class="corners-top"><span></span></span> <div class="postbody"> <p class="author"><img src="http://www.gamesas.com/styles/proFormell/imageset/icon_post_target.gif" width="11" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" /> » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:37 pm </p> <div class="content"> <div class="blockquote"><div class='quote'>its a game, voice overs cost money<br /><br />money ends, so u can't have millions of lines<br /><br />its svcks but its reality<br /><br />thats why MW had so many IN depth quests....<br /><br /><span style='font-size: 24px;'><span style='color: #FF0000'>IT WAS ALL TEXT BASED WITH NO ANIMATIONS OR VOICE OVERS AT ALL</span></span><br /><br />a fact a lot of the lunatic MW fans seem to forget all the time.<br /></div></div><br />I think you are missing something here.<br /><br />I don't care that they repeat themselves (too much). They need to adjust what is said when to eliminate inconsistencies like being the leader of the companions and being asked if you fetch their mead.</div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741567"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1308.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/1308.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1308.html">Alexandra Louise Taylor</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3449</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:48 pm</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <div id="p3741568" class="post bg1"> <div class="inner"><span class="corners-top"><span></span></span> <div class="postbody"> <p class="author"><img src="http://www.gamesas.com/styles/proFormell/imageset/icon_post_target.gif" width="11" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" /> » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:28 pm </p> <div class="content"> <div class="blockquote"><div class='quote'>It's partly an issue of recording dialogue. But I agree what they chose to record has a number of oddities. I don't know why they have so many voice actors using the exact same lines for things, when instead they could have made things more varied. Why all the different guards have the same lines, why the Jarls often have the same lines (such as when you are made Thane)...I don't know why'd they do that.<br /><br />Part of it is recording though. An NPC that talks about their history and gives personal information, is cutting away at the amount of generic dialogue including the other dialogue that NPC could have about things.<br /></div></div><br />Yes I've wondered this. Different voice actors saying the same generic lines uses the same amount of audio as if they were saying different things - the only work with making them different is thinking of a new line - it would take five minutes to dream up a bunch of 'arrow to the knee' variations and this would probably make the game more entertaining if different voice actors gave thematically similiar but different lines.<br /><br />There is also poor co-ordination - in some cases the same voice actor is using the same tone to speak to themselves playing another role - e.g. the climix of the skull of corruption quest. That guy is a decent voice actor, but sounds weird voicing two distinct people simultaneously.</div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741568"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1345.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/1345.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1345.html">Invasion's</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3546</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:09 pm</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <div id="p3741569" class="post bg2"> <div class="inner"><span class="corners-top"><span></span></span> <div class="postbody"> <p class="author"><img src="http://www.gamesas.com/styles/proFormell/imageset/icon_post_target.gif" width="11" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" /> » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:10 am </p> <div class="content"> It seems that this discussion is moving away from the OP.<br />This started as an observation on the annoyance of the repetitive random greetings from npc's and seems to be moving more towards looking at the limitations of the dialogue system regarding its reactiveness to the pc's actions and the changes they cause in the world.<br /><br />Maybe this is not something that could have been best addressed from a design standpoint by other means than the character greetings.<br /><br />The only place in the game that really has before/after states that are realistic is Helgen. The greetings are not the issue.<br />The problem is that modern games (at least of this kind) don't really get into the whole idea of having the world really change according to events.<br />There is responsiveness to changes at some level by npc's, but they then repeat these other observations ad nauseam, so it doesn't really help.<br /><br />You do earthshattering, world-changing things in this game but after completing the major qiests the world is unchanged. Tinkering with dialogue wouldn't solve this problem even if it had been done. I don't think it was poor design of oversight on part of beth that the dialogues system is the way it is: it was designed for a generalized sense of being seen by people and being among them. It's a texture. It's not the problem that people are concerned with here.</div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741569"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member2493.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/2493.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member2493.html">Leticia Hernandez</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3426</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:46 am</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <div id="p3741570" class="post bg1"> <div class="inner"><span class="corners-top"><span></span></span> <div class="postbody"> <p class="author"><img src="http://www.gamesas.com/styles/proFormell/imageset/icon_post_target.gif" width="11" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" /> » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:25 pm </p> <div class="content"> <div class="blockquote"><div class='quote'>Like wtf lol. In real society, people rarely will say anything to you and won't stare you down when you pass them by.</div></div><br />Hmm can't say I agree with that!<br /><br />But I understand your point with all this, and it annoys me too. My game has lag issues so I'm quite often trying to move around NPCs, which often leads to them spamming me multiple times with the same old tripe. Gets annoying when followers talk about the same rubbish in dungeons too, or when quest NPCs stop what they're scripted to do to stand there and say "Follow me" or god-knows-what.</div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741570"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1772.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/1772.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1772.html">Kat Stewart</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3355</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:30 am</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <div id="p3741571" class="post bg2"> <div class="inner"><span class="corners-top"><span></span></span> <div class="postbody"> <p class="author"><img src="http://www.gamesas.com/styles/proFormell/imageset/icon_post_target.gif" width="11" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" /> » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:01 pm </p> <div class="content"> <div class="blockquote"><div class='quote'>That's exactly my feeling as well. It shows a lot when you look at NPC interaction: Everything is scripted. Everytime you enter Markarth you will see the murder scene, everytime you enter Solitude you will see the execution, and so on and on. It's fun and makes the cities feel alive in your first playthrough, but once you realize it's the same thing over and over again, the game gets awfully linear, repetitive and lifeless.<br /><br /><br />Morrowind had voiceovers and animations. Not for the actual dialogue, but for some greetings and general ambient NPC muttering. I wish they had stuck with that system and made good use of the voice actors by expanding these ambient voices.<br /></div></div><br />call me crazy but i would not have minded "text" dialog and only the greetings and perhaps the MQ were voiced over<br /><br />but in the end some people might just freak out if NPCs have massive amounts of text instead of the 10 -12 lines of actual recorded voice.</div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741571"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member2206.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/2206.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member2206.html">mike</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3432</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:51 pm</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <div id="p3741572" class="post bg1"> <div class="inner"><span class="corners-top"><span></span></span> <div class="postbody"> <p class="author"><img src="http://www.gamesas.com/styles/proFormell/imageset/icon_post_target.gif" width="11" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" /> » Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:09 am </p> <div class="content"> <div class="blockquote"><div class='quote'>I think you are missing something here.<br /><br />I don't care that they repeat themselves (too much). They need to adjust what is said when to eliminate inconsistencies like being the leader of the companions and being asked if you fetch their mead.<br /></div></div><br />THAT ....<br /><br />I agree 100% with</div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741572"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member2087.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/2087.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member2087.html">Paul Rice</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3430</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:51 am</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <div id="p3741573" class="post bg2"> <div class="inner"><span class="corners-top"><span></span></span> <div class="postbody"> <p class="author"><img src="http://www.gamesas.com/styles/proFormell/imageset/icon_post_target.gif" width="11" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" /> » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:32 pm </p> <div class="content"> <div class="blockquote"><div class='quote'>Again, its not meant as a personal attack, but as my subjective opinion.<br />I didnt name any names or call anyone lazy, I called one specific element of the game lazy, and I probably should have used a different word or added that its only my opinion.<br /><br />Possibly there is also some culture clash going on here, us Dutch really arent used to the social niceties that for instance the English use a lot and are often considered rude by other peoples. Conversely, we tend to find the ritualistic manner of speaking of the English world (the P's and Q's) to be rather insincere. Its a culture thing maybe but I have no problem with adapting for better understanding.<br /><br />Your points are valid and noted and Ill consider them in the future.<br />I cant do better than that <img src='http://www.gamesas.com/images/smilie/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':smile:' /><br /></div></div><br />Well, I'm Canadian. We're stereotypically obsessed with social niceties. <img src='http://www.gamesas.com/images/smilie/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /><br /><br />In any case, my remarks weren't initially directed at you, just at a tendency in the forums to blame design issues on the personal characteristics of the developers. I find those kinds of comments ('lazy', 'greedy', 'stupid' + 'developers') to be every bit as annoying as the one-liners Skyrim's NPCs spit at you when you're walking by. I probably overreacted to 'lazy design', so I guess I'm just venting. My apologies. No doubt there are cultural differences in this area.<br /> <br />My apologies to the OP for going off-topic.</div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741573"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1558.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/1558.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1558.html">Roanne Bardsley</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3414</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:57 am</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <div id="p3741574" class="post bg1"> <div class="inner"><span class="corners-top"><span></span></span> <div class="postbody"> <p class="author"><img src="http://www.gamesas.com/styles/proFormell/imageset/icon_post_target.gif" width="11" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" /> » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:37 am </p> <div class="content"> <div class="blockquote"><div class='quote'>call me crazy but i would not have minded "text" dialog and only the greetings and perhaps the MQ were voiced over<br /><br />but in the end some people might just freak out if NPCs have massive amounts of text instead of the 10 -12 lines of actual recorded voice.<br /></div></div>Well, those problems will be resolved when someone gets around to selling text-to-speech middleware that actually sounds like a human being. The developers will farm out the important bits to well-known actors and use synthesized voices for all of the bit parts. We're just in a transitional period between text and voiced dialogue.</div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741574"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1908.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/1908.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1908.html">Irmacuba</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3531</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:54 am</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <div id="p3741575" class="post bg2"> <div class="inner"><span class="corners-top"><span></span></span> <div class="postbody"> <p class="author"><img src="http://www.gamesas.com/styles/proFormell/imageset/icon_post_target.gif" width="11" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" /> » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:29 pm </p> <div class="content"> The OP thought it unrealistic for strangers to say such things to you. I suppose I agree- but it's more the fact this is All they have to say to you. And you can't talk to them- <br />What's the matter, you can't stand a strong nord woman?<br /><br />When you attempt to talk, there's no option. She repeats this for the length of the game.<br /><br />This is what is left of Morrowind's and Oblivion's ambitious interaction. <br /><br />This is Fallout 4- I thought everyone loved it?</div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741575"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member2140.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/2140.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member2140.html">gary lee</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3436</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:49 pm</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <div id="p3741576" class="post bg1"> <div class="inner"><span class="corners-top"><span></span></span> <div class="postbody"> <p class="author"><img src="http://www.gamesas.com/styles/proFormell/imageset/icon_post_target.gif" width="11" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" /> » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:54 am </p> <div class="content"> <div class="blockquote"><div class='quote'>In <em class='bbc'>theory</em> it's a better system. I would love to have a game where NPCs could have actual conversations dynamically generated by the game that was relevant to the context of recent/current events. Yes, they should continue that line of development. If it's not show-ready, though, then scripted dialogue is still going to sound better.</div></div><br />So rather than scrapping the system and starting over with a system that has far less promise and is entirely predecided, they should have worked on improving it. They didn't continue that line of development though, they dropped it.<br /><br /><div class="blockquote"><div class='quote'>Skyrim's drive by dialogue is an attempt, I believe, to add more 'pvssyr' to the game in a way that involves the player: it makes the towns noisier and makes the player aware that the NPCs are aware of them. It's the exact same reason that they added movement to NPCs. Having your NPCs stand in the same place all day waiting to have conversations with the player is obviously not very realistic, so the developers started making them wander around aimlessly. It's still not realistic, but it's <em class='bbc'>more</em> realistic, and it makes towns seem more alive.</div></div><br />I don't think it makes towns much noisier, not in a good way anyhow. I am not sure there is a nice way to described their implementation where NPCs regularly interrupt me from being able to listen to a conversation that is going on in the background (and I can understand those being predecided for important places, like when you first visit a Jarl or part of a quest). Then the sort of pvssyr they decided upon...it's immensely problematic and I am at a loss as to why they'd pick certain things, like different VAs all being recorded saying the exact same thing.<br /><br /><div class="blockquote"><div class='quote'>It's obvious that the drive by dialogue mechanic is not well-implemented in Skyrim and should have been dropped or modified. Is it a design issue? Yes. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have tried it or that they shouldn't try to improve it. In this regard, it is identical to their attempt to dynamically assemble conversations between NPCs. It's a line of development they should continue to refine and explore and, in situations where it works, it should be included.</div></div><br />Beyond people saying "hi" when you run up to them or bothering you for something important, I don't see what's to be gained here. It's not like there's anything complicated here and I think the game would have been far, far better served by simply really working on refining the Oblivion system rather than dropping it.<br /><br />And that's the fundamental problem here. They basically scrapped all the progress they made with Oblivion rather than improving upon it.</div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741576"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1590.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/1590.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1590.html">Hayley O'Gara</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3465</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:53 am</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <div id="p3741577" class="post bg2"> <div class="inner"><span class="corners-top"><span></span></span> <div class="postbody"> <p class="author"><img src="http://www.gamesas.com/styles/proFormell/imageset/icon_post_target.gif" width="11" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" /> » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:08 am </p> <div class="content"> <div class="blockquote"><div class='quote'>I don't mind the pvssyr much at all. What bothers me is the fact that the pvssyr...the pvssyr never changes.<br /><br />Become the Thieves Guild Master, and no one even really recognizes; it has no impact on how you are treated. Become the Archmage and that stupid Orc Librarian still yammers at you like you were some first year http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRtrqhVe3Ao.<br /><br />It all comes back to how choices really have no impact on the game. Sure there is lots of talk about how this group doesn’t like those people; this race is despised, those favored. But when it comes down to it, your character has no race nor does he appear to display any type of status. You might as well be a wire frame entitled "The Player".<br /></div></div><br />Not really, people always recognize me as "the mage from the college" or, at the college, with jealousy. But I hate how I can't intimidate people. I'm an all powerful archmage and your a miner. Why can some drunk bosmer intimidate you, but I can't? WTF</div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741577"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1507.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/1507.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1507.html">Jessica Colville</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3349</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:53 pm</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <div id="p3741578" class="post bg1"> <div class="inner"><span class="corners-top"><span></span></span> <div class="postbody"> <p class="author"><img src="http://www.gamesas.com/styles/proFormell/imageset/icon_post_target.gif" width="11" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" /> » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:26 pm </p> <div class="content"> <div class="blockquote"><div class='quote'>Not really, people always recognize me as "the mage from the college" or, at the college, with jealousy. But I hate how I can't intimidate people. I'm an all powerful archmage and your a miner. Why can some drunk bosmer intimidate you, but I can't? WTF<br /></div></div><br />It's a problem with scrapping disposition rather than expanding on it. Instead of allowing NPCs to have a few factors relating to their attitude concerning you they only have 3: like, hate, or neutral. Being afraid, respectful, or anything else isn't an option unless it is specifically programmed into their default behavior.</div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741578"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member2023.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/2023.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member2023.html">Reven Lord</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3452</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Mon May 21, 2007 9:56 pm</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <div id="p3741579" class="post bg2"> <div class="inner"><span class="corners-top"><span></span></span> <div class="postbody"> <p class="author"><img src="http://www.gamesas.com/styles/proFormell/imageset/icon_post_target.gif" width="11" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" /> » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:39 pm </p> <div class="content"> <div class="blockquote"><div class='quote'>Not really, people always recognize me as "the mage from the college" or, at the college, with jealousy. But I hate how I can't intimidate people. I'm an all powerful archmage and your a miner. Why can some drunk bosmer intimidate you, but I can't? WTF<br /></div></div><br />When you go to Whiterun does Farengar Secret-Fire still suggest that <em class='bbc'>"You know, if you have the aptitude, you should join the Mage's College in Winterhold." </em>even while you are wearing the Archmage Robes?</div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741579"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1330.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/1330.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1330.html">Tammie Flint</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3336</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:12 am</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <div id="p3741580" class="post bg1"> <div class="inner"><span class="corners-top"><span></span></span> <div class="postbody"> <p class="author"><img src="http://www.gamesas.com/styles/proFormell/imageset/icon_post_target.gif" width="11" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" /> » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:38 pm </p> <div class="content"> Yesterday, I sat down in Jorrvaskr next to Vilkas. With me, just sitting there doing and saying nothing, Vilkas goes:<br />"You're a talkative one, aren't you?"<br />"You're a talkative one, aren't you?"<br />"You're a talkative one, aren't you?"<br />"You're a talkative one, aren't you?"<br />"You're a talkative one, aren't you?"<br />"You're a talkative one, aren't you?"<br />"You're a talkative one, aren't you?"<br /><br />I had flashbacks to FO3's Annoying Man.</div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741580"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member2039.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/2039.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member2039.html">Bloomer</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3435</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Sun May 27, 2007 9:23 pm</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <div id="p3741581" class="post bg2"> <div class="inner"><span class="corners-top"><span></span></span> <div class="postbody"> <p class="author"><img src="http://www.gamesas.com/styles/proFormell/imageset/icon_post_target.gif" width="11" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" /> » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:43 pm </p> <div class="content"> Is it normal for the housecarl in Solitude (whatever her name is) to suggest I'm lost for entering my own home?</div> </div> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile3741581"> <dt> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1401.html"><img src="./images/avatars/user/1401.jpg" width="150" height="112" alt="User avatar" /></a><br /> <a href="http://www.gamesas.com/member1401.html">Symone Velez</a> </dt> <dd> </dd> <dd><strong>Posts:</strong> 3434</dd><dd><strong>Joined:</strong> Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:39 am</dd> </dl> <span class="corners-bottom"><span></span></span></div> </div> <hr class="divider" /> <form id="viewtopic" method="post" action="http://www.gamesas.com/the-unrealisticness-dialogue-t242622-75.html"> <fieldset class="display-options" style="margin-top: 0; 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