Oh, sorry, I didn't realize.

Are you seriously comparing http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/522654444096791944/85A7AE60A0AA4AF329CF5017AEA47B217C352FB1/ to http://i.neoseeker.com/n/4/khajiittemple02_thumb.jpg?

And it's ok that you don't care about ratings, but since they're the only way of semi-objectively comparing games, I'm going to go ahead and use them here.

You taken a promo shot and compared it to a real shot, LOL

I may give Two Worlds 2 a try. At fifteen bucks, I cannot go wrong. I do remember the loading screens in the first Two Worlds were amazingly fast, compared to a TES game. But Two Worlds lacks the deep lore that you get with TES (no in game books) and it did not have respawns, so after you cleared out an area it was pretty dead, nor could you buy a house or do a lot of things you could in a TES game.

Still I found the first Two Worlds to be one of the very few open world RPG's out there and once you get past the corny dialog, it is a decent game that has been overly criticized. The AI however in the first Two Worlds was not as good as Oblivion. Most of the NPCs just stood in one spot, Morrowind style. Graphics, however in the first Two Worlds were a bit better than Oblivion overall.

Yeah, sorry about talking about Two Worlds 2 but yes it's ￡9.99 at the moment on Steam.

The promo shot looks exactly like that space does in game, with the exception of the Khajiit being slightly brighter than he would be in the game. But since you're convinced of the superiority of a game that was the subject of this article: http://www.joystiq.com/2011/01/25/two-worlds-2-review/, go for it. I certainly can't stop you.

I didn't read all of the thread, but the general gist I got from everyone's responses was something like... It's too hard to program, why bother, don't simulate real life, etc etc. It's mentalities like that, that cause subpar games to keep coming out, or for games that could have done a lot more keep falling short and just do what's necessary to make the sale. When you guys call companies out on stuff, it pushes them to work harder and do a better job (well that and not buying their game ).

I love using Dark Souls as an example for this, because its just such a complete game, so it works in all of these kinds of discussions. Ambushes can be done in a huge open world game for sure. In Dark Souls, there's an area where there a bunch of enemies using crossbows looking overhead from the other end of a large Courtyard. If they spot you, they open fire. They're protected at higher ground, so you either have to use a projectile to hit them or run up there after them. But when you go to run after them, there are enemies waiting at the stairs to ambush you for trying to go after the crossbowmen! So you have to deal with those guys first. It's an ambush set to go into another ambush. But that sort of activity...can only be done well...(and be managed well) by hand placing things in the game.

In Dark Souls every enemy is hand placed, each weapon is unique and balanced in order to be as effective as every other weapon, while remaining unique to itself. All playstyles are viable and unique. Animations are incredible and lifelike, and the world is also handcrafted and very large. Because of that, the game feels a lot more alive.

In Oblivion. the bandits who would try to mug you for your gold were hidden well by hand placing them there, and making them come out when it was appropriate.

In Skyrim, the land is relatively hand crafted, but there's just a lot less handcrafting of NPCs and Spawning in Skyrim, and more of a random (and rather empty) world instead.

In the shot the OP made, the ambush options would have to be set by Bethesda, and the appropriate AI packages set to deal wtih invaders. But again that sort of thing has to be done through hand placement.

I feel that when it comes to the meat and potatoes of the game, too much stuff is still "random". A lot more is hand crafted, but it's not 100% hand crafted in the way you'd need it to be in order to be as believable and have as interesting encounters like the OP suggested.

The only other thing to mention is that I personally don't think random is bad, and random can be used to enhance things, but there should be a hefty amount of handcrafting in every department, mixed in with enough random to "keep you guessing".

I needed a good laugh. Thanks. That was an entertaining read.

EDIT: Just ordered Two Worlds Two and Dark Souls so I can do a good comparison of both to Skyrim. I only play open world games cause the linear games just don't interest my as much. Rather just watch a movie than play one of those storybook games.

Promo shots are setup and adjusted, probably upscaled and downscaled for quality. If you're going to compare shots, do it properly. You can keep put up random reviews all you like but it doesn't change the fact of the point I was making that technically it's much better than Skyrim and not dumbed down, where you have to follow the arrow all the time to even get anywhere in the game.

That follow the magic quest arrow nonsense is one big complaint I have with Skyrim. The solution I have been using is to turn off the entire HUD and to make judicious use of the clairvoyance spell. It would still be better to have directions available in the game world, but beggars can't be choosers.

Every one of us would try at least. But saying that he as modder, with the tools the CK currently offers, should make it by far better, than Bethesda inhouse programmers did, is just out of scope.

Absolutely. In fact, them deciding on the stuff you wear, and the wealth they could loot, could be factoring their engagement, like how many they gather before making their ambush.

Super Mario offers exaclty what the Jump'n'Runner wants to play!

TW2 has obviously a somehow better integration of certain areas like Hatmandor. I think this decision relies 100% upon consoles RAM specs. The textures would start a fight for space, instead you having a good game.
But I would refer to TW2 as only a half step towards the better TW. The open world aspect is hidden very well, and we all do know why. What I absolutely like about TW2 is its magic system.
I hope Reality Pump does continue with passion.


*slobber* These games infected us with the curiosity we can not switch off.

Again, you said something which is very true. AI won't be developed by one game studio like Bethesda in one of those GameJam's

....btw, did you see the annoucement of patch 1.5?
muahahaha the Kill Cam. How many of Skyrim fans are just to eager to download this crap? A kill cam would assume the engine to know of a kill actually BEFORE my char shot his arrow.
That is neat and nice like mashed potatoes. Eat it!
( of course the emgine does not know before, but it shows how much cpu power there is left actually...)

When we look at chess engines today, and we can, there are a lot of different types. Well, chess does have a simpler rule-set, somehow.
But comparing it to a 3D open world, the rule-set is definitely not this out of boundaries as it may seem at first glance.

Pathfinding routines are already libraries.

Comparing this to what Bethesda does, we could argue, hey Todd, if you like chess and wanna play on the PC, then you'll have to code this first.
We do only take care of the graphics, the pawn moving forth, plus the rook moving back and forth, ok?

Wait, Oblivion had no spawn points and sitting ducks?

Yes I do agree. The Radar system is certainly a bogus. A lot of comments where arguing about a life simulator.
But if I play ego-perspective I would rather like the impression to be a freakin moving command center.

Is the Skyrim CK really that much more limited than the Oblivion CK? Don't think it is out of scope to say that the modders made Oblivion far better than vanilla. I still enjoy vanilla Oblivion, mind you , but just sayin . . .



My comment about the first Two Worlds NPCs sitting still Morrowind style was in reference to the merchant type NPCs, a lot of whom would stand in one spot and not move in Two Worlds. In contrast, Oblivion's merchants had schedules. As far as enemy AI, the first Two Worlds and Oblivion seemed to be on a par with each other.

The biggest limitation of the CK is its current state. The object manipulation GUI offers a ridiculous set of hundreds a data/values pairs, which aren't to decypher by ease.
Dunno where to get the information from. This information overhaul is regarding nearly every object, be it a magic effect or else.
I would have favored a user-oriented interface in terms of beginner, intermediate and expert. seeing all this information with no coincidence what they mean or affect,is hilarious.
The instruction set itself does offer the advanced event system, which is by far better than what TES did offer without any extensions.
But on the other side, important commands are missing totally. e.g. the HasLOS command only is applicable for the player actor.
Setting up an ambush would make it essential to have a HasLOS for a route or waypoint, the actor presumably is going along.
Once achieving this, dynamically placing navmeshes and taking them away wouldnt be the hardest part.

Obvious, before more commenter's shout out, "I do NOT want to have thousands of NPCs calculating their masterplan, while my CPU is giving me laggggg",
I would argue, that not all NPC's should do that. In terms of a General this would be more the guy to give the big orders, and the dudes are trying to achieve this.
The AI calculation is not to be applied on thousands of NPCs. A fine graduation here would be just .............. (<- fill out to whatever you would like to be associated with this)
Meaning, there would be something for you as player to take care of, if meeting such a higher ranked enemy, because a better AI is not this imprudent.
Currently we're trying to bash onto him just more frequently, knowing that this dude is massive and has triple Hitpoints.

Beth aren't master of AI.

Hell, I don't know any companies that could meet your expectations for AI.

They don't need to be Masters of AI, I feel if they put the effort to DO it they can most certainly pull it off. you don't need to make the AI actively thinking its going to ambush you to simulate a dynamic situation that doesn't include see player, attack player, no fleeing(smart fleeing), no regrouping, no trapping, no changing tactics.

Well multiple times I've been walking around and I would find a camp with maybe a bandit or 2 in at at night time. I'd kill them and start looking around the camp, see what they have. Then suddenly, 3 more bandits come as a group, obviously came back from hunting or looking out for people who knows. but yes I have had things like that happen. also try and pretend.

Believe me, that promo shot of Skyrim is not that impressive. Say hello to real thing in Skyrim:

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/imageshare/images/3455973-1326322348.jpg
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/imageshare/images/3455973-1326835260.jpg
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/imageshare/images/3455973-1326836144.jpg
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/imageshare/images/3455973-1330632299.jpg
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/imageshare/images/3455973-1330632642.jpg

Now I know these are not promo shots... because I was the person who captured them. With the right changes and settings, Skyrim can be made to insanely beautiful. But... BUT so can the other game!

EDIT: If the pics look washed out with whiteness, your screen display is set too high. They should be a little bit on the dark side. And for goodness sake folks, let's end the "which game is better than which thing"... the more games the merrier!

There was an ambush by a farm where a dead bandit is used as bait for the others, can't remember which hold it is in. All I remember is that the road is also a patrol route for Falmer Soldiers and there is a Dragon nearby the farm land.

Gosh, it is ok, Hey.....we all are glad about Skyrim. Pls don't post this anymore. I really understand why some ppl argued about that and now i understand it.
Skyrim is a great game, and if they continue support it might even get better.
Probably the AI packages can be extended by buying a DLC especially with this purpose. not everyone would need it indeed.
But it would be a step into the future of open world RPG, perhaps capable of a plugin architecture similiar to the chess engines. who knows,
In the meantime I am glad how it is, I have enough trouble in real life.
Skyrim is the least thing to be annoyed about. I play it every once and then, and I am still very impressed. Thanks everybody, keep care in Sykrim!

The 360 is actually a dream to programme for.

Well, I put in my brand new copy of Two Worlds II last night but I wasn't that impressed with the graphics. I mean they were okay, but Skyrim's graphics seemed a mile ahead. The way the character moved also seemed a bit wonky. The loading screen in Two Worlds II was lightning fast though, just like in the first Two Worlds.

Honestly, I did not enjoy the gameplay in Two Worlds II as much in the first Two Worlds. The UI/HUD seemed even more complicated and unintelligible than the first one, and instead of letting you get straight to adventuring, like they did in the first one, they run you through a lengthy tutorial with a cut scene every thirty seconds. I kept hoping that the relentless stream of cutscenes would end, but like the Orcs at the Battle of Helm's Deep, they just kept coming.

After two hours of watching cutscene after cutscene, I had to take out the disc and put Oblivion in just to clear out the headache the Two Worlds game was giving me. I really enjoyed the First Two Worlds, corny dialog and all, and I thought it was really a fun little game if you could look past a few flaws. I couldn't get there with the second one. Plus, the blatent copying of Sauron from LOTR in Two Worlds II was just a little too cheesy for my tastes.