Hello folks,

again I have read the topic, "What do you think about Skyrim...5 months later?"

Well I could answer this question right in that topic, but I need a bit more room for explanation.
Why this title? A true open world RPG? Everyone would tell you, yes it is. But I think different.

Ok, lets start by looking at this scene.

[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/450596254261338362/3DE699CF3ADFB86AE2ED253CA4078F08147E18E4/[/img ]


What do we see? A pretty open world, a rocky scene, true wilderness, neat and interesting.

Now, assuming you were the hero having just this perspective and seeing this scene, what would you do?
Yes, probably would ask yourself, where to go next. To the left it looks rather interesting, but to the right there are some interesting stones in the background. So lets see....
What do we expect in our inner most? Do they have a look out? especially hungry for their prey? Bandits judging your wealth and the loot worth to attack?
Of course they could use the environment to setup an ambush?
Does this determine your decision? There could be some creatures, or even worse bandits, or Thalmor?

What you really expect in Skyrim is ...yes, enemies may spawn in that area because there are spawn points set....everybody knows how this works already.

Ask yourself...do enemies spawn and then just wander around with no pattern? Do they expect you to show up there one way or the other, actually considering this?
Some mods or modders try to give NPC's a certain route given by way-points...like the Adventurers and Travelers mod does, or mods with heroes and villains, which wander around.

Does this solve the challenges a true open world RPG would offer?

Did you ever met enemies that were on a lookout post, hiding behind a rock, a ledge, behind a tree...whatever....
Did they assume the way your going and try to setup a trap in advance, an ambush before you reached the place?
Did they try to follow you in a certain distance just to attack you when you are already engaged by other creatures, and use their advantage from behind?
Did they try not to kill you, but to go for a certain loot and then run away?

No. The answer is no. and I could ask hundreds of this questions, and the answer still would be no, no, no.

Why do I ask? What is all this glitter for, when I have the same monotonous, naive behavior from all other artificial lifeforms in Skyrim, and every other ES title had this problem as well.
Does Bethesda lack in calculation of probabilities, assumptions of routes, can't they give their lifeforms the ability to use their environment yet?
Cant we expect something more sophisticated in terms of the actions the lifeforms in Skyrim are to accomplish? at least have a mature, more natural impression of a true open world RPG?

What we play actually is a immensely simplified game play! And I wouldn't consider this as a true open world RPG yet. The boundaries are still too obvious.

I really would like to see a kick off here, a try, even if it was just not to fulfill my expectations at all. Just not that I am the only one to scratch his head and sometimes wonder.
Of course I would like others to comment this as well, and say what they think. Thank you, i hope the nice screenie was a small delight at least.

*sigh* This would be very hard to program, and really only a human can think this way. To answer your question; Open-world? Absolutely. RPG? Meh...

Yeah, that's a big ask aye...

That kinda reminds me of that anime ghost in the shell:innocence

Wait a couple of years sir and or madam. Honestly, one must first think objectively about the restrictions on programming set by being forced to provide a game for both the XBOX 360 and the PS3. I have a strong feeling that the next Elder Scrolls game shall be utterly shocking in both scale and depth.

Real life is the only true open world RPG available.

I dont take back what I sed above but this is a possibility, still there has to be restrictions otherwise there wood be no order

I think that this thread is something that bethesda should be checking out and give feedback on

I doubt even the best of system could do this, the AI for this would be crazy complicated probably with more complex code then half the game itself

Did you ever met enemies that were on a lookout post, hiding behind a rock, a ledge, behind a tree...whatever....

set an NPC as lookout/patrol, sees player, runs away and alerts NPC's...like what they already do in game, one sees you, it rallies others


Did they assume the way your going and try to setup a trap in advance, an ambush before you reached the place?

Sees player, starts routine for normal ambush, like what spiders and Sabercats do


Did they try to follow you in a certain distance just to attack you when you are already engaged by other creatures, and use their advantage from behind?

also possible

Did they try not to kill you, but to go for a certain loot and then run away?

also possible


case and point? you do the effort, its possible, but its not in game.

I'd say that future systems themselves wouldn't be a barrier but instead the human programmers would probably have a nightmare coding something like that. I remember the PS3 being heralded as vastly superior to the xbox360 but the actual part that matters, i.e. the coding, was very difficult to do. The fact that Sony has abandoned its 'core' technology for its next machine would suggest this is true.

Imagine how much memory it would take keeping track of every NPC in the game world, as well as constantly calculating different travel routes and destinations. They'd have a lot of problems getting stuck on rocks/steep inclines as well.

I'm quite sure there will be plenty of people eager to find and point out every little thing they consider a flaw and inconvenience in that game as well.

People tend to forget that games are meant as entertainment. It's not a life simulator

Give it enough time.

This is not really an open-world aspect, or a strict rpg-aspect but rather a tactical issue. It won't become more or less open or rpg depending on how challenging you make the encounters from a tactical perspective.

BUT, you can create encounters which challenge the player with surprise and gives the advantage to the enemies, at least for a number of pre-scripted encounters, but probably not for generic random encounters. There are quite a lot of possibilities to create situations where the player must be alert and think quickly to avoid a very difficult situation. A number of factors can be included to achieve this:
-Seal off, the character must not be allowed to just quickly retreat to where they came from and recover and re-group
-Confinement, the character must be confined to a tight spot where they cannot run back and forth and kite enemies
-Supression, using a mage, atronach, hargraven or something to launch magic against the character from a protected position, especially fire since the fire effect is quite disorienting
-Unknown element, like an enemy that only suffers damage from a certain damage type or artefact, or a puzzle that needs to be solved quickly n order to defeat an enemy

I would think it is quite difficult to achieve out in the open, there is too much space to move and many covers, even a single tree works quite well as a cover.

but what if life is just a game simulator?! ...

Two ES ago, npcs were eternally pacing 5 feet back and forth and sometimes never moving at all. I considered it still a true open world rpg. In skyrim ive had necromancers and vampires randomly raising dead as we fight, sometimes one of my own allies. Ive also had a follower at the last sliver of my health thrust their sword into my enemies back just as i thought id be dead. Ive also seen a giant battle a dragon, kill the dragon, and charge me and a follower with half health while i was level 10. I couldnt run far, so i was almost killed with one shot, fell down, swung a greatsword and watched it get buried into the giants ankle surprisingly killing it.

What you want would make for the buggiest game ever. What is done now is great... Just more of the bugs need to be ironed out. Enjoy it for what it is instead of memorizing spawn points

This will only happen 10-20 years from now. Since since the older days of gaming when consoles ruled (Nintendo 64 times) hardware was more limited. But we've made HUGE advances since then. Now the PC dominates the hardware capability so while this would entirely be possible. the time and effort needed to create to code for it would take far too long. You can't forget that bethesda has to release their games as soon as possible, so they can make their money back quickly enough.
You also have limitations on what the companies THINK they can do. For example, With Oblivion for Xbox 360, It was a lower quality game than Skyrim because companies didn't know how much the console could handle. Another example is comparing Gears of War to GoW 3, the graphics and gameplay get far better as game companies further understand the hardware they are dealing with.
With that being said, however, games for PC arent limited by the hardware, it's not the developers responsible for "dumbing" down the game to be capable of lower performance hardware. It's more along the lines of Hardware keeping up with the games and if the consumer doesn't have the specs to handle it then it's his/her responsibility to upgrade.
In short, When a new leap in technology comes forth. A new era of higher quality games will be made to show off the technology.

Meh, being too realistic will probably bore the hell out of me. That's how I felt with the STALKER games. Overly realistic and difficult. Game was uninstalled after 1 day.

I guess the same arguments would have been uttered 20 years ago regarding shader techniques.

hmm, Skyrim already keeps track of NPC's....but as 8GB are next to next standard for main memory configuration, I would doubt this to be a real technical limitation here.

Yes and No. I think an RPG is a life simulator, somehow. A virtual world simulator with virtual life. Referring to a true "life simulator", this would include simulating even the organs of a lifeform, and that is not what we were talking bout.....in fact, local damage would tend to go in this direction. Not to mention how bored I got with the combat system. Just hitting the mesh instead of finding its weak spots, and giving armor and protection a deeper meaning, is not so next-gen.

The Stalker games, oh well. Yes they did improve AI/behavior somehow, compared to main stream games of that time. But the frightening aspect in Stalker games was caused by the claustrophobic setting.
Skyrim would be a fatal misconception by doing this as well. the AI/behavior improvements shouldn't only imply a better game because the enemies are harder to challenge.
But the options for a different game play, where you as player have to decide as well, are always preferable. Actually I didn't like the hack'n'slash approach of Skyrim very much.
enemies clearly outnumbered or in disadvantage would tend to avoid combat, call for support, hide, flee, or give up.
Stalker games didn't intend this. Beside, Artist Pavel did offer 3 very good patches for all Stalker games on his blog (http://artistpavel.blogspot.com/).
All patches are essential if you like playing the Stalker games.

Ueberealistic, i dont like this term at all, is a subjective view. A gameplay without the standard options a RPG should offer, is much more uncomfortable to me.
Wyh do we refer to advanced concepts always by the term "realism"? This is what simulators are for. Honestly, thats not what I was talking about.
But at some point you cant avoid this. Havok is a physics simulation, the elements like fire, water, ice etc. have to be "simulated", But there is nothing wrong with that unless it doesn't improve gameplay at all.

The question to this answer is difficult. Since you have a different approach.
The lookout patrol is really meant to act as a scout. A scout should be on a lookout, without being spotted. Skyrim doesn't offer this.
In fact, all possible enemies show up as big red dots, this radar like system would make any gameplay impossible, which intends to offer "surprises"!

The normal ambush routine, is a "find shortest path" routine. Nothing special, imho.
Please be aware, that Bethesda is developing ES since 20 years, with an ongoing support crew of 50 - 60 specialists in average.
I doubt that they have tried to find different solutions yet, since everything sells well what they offer.

To be more specific about your answer, everything the CK offers would not make the behavior of the AI be more specific to its environment.
The most objects are very static, and AI can differ basically between in front, right, left, back, up or down. But in most cases they have no options for what they are doing.

I remind a fight in a fortress, the NPC chased me around a table. I was able to evade always by running with my char in the opposite direction, and then i was using my fire spell on him,
the NPC should have acted differently, retreated and run away. instead he kept chasing me until he was killed by the fire.
another flaw would be the NPC not following you through doors. Well, they don't have to every time.
But by occupying a fortress they should at least try to lock their doors in case they managed to drive my char out. Or am I wrong?

Get four or five good friends together and start a table top game. You're never going to be satisfied with the limitations of a CRPG.

Jesus Christ, you are asking waaaay too much man. There is only so much you can do on a computer.

Exactly.. All you have to do is compare games from the past...We've come a long way. My first playthrough I was fighting a dragon and things were going horribly. All of a sudden a bear appeared on the horizon charging the dragon.. and then a troll appeared. While the dragon was fighting these beasts it gave me time to heal up, regroup myself and charge in for a second attack. That was a completely unique experience that I've never seen in any other game.

Well, I am not sure bout this, but if i spend time on a computer rpg, i favor something more sophisticated...i didnt say this costs less time to do.

PS:
I dont think to refer to Skyrim by this RPG has to offer all to me. I certainly know bout limitations of the way computers work.
But if I stick with it, and everything is just implemented halfway, certainly I do ask myself, why wasn't it implemented fully.
By that, I would like to omit a discussion if computer games do make sense at all, and if real life copes well with them.

If possible, I would like to refer to Skyrims game mechanics, and how these were implemented.

OP what game anywhere is a true Open world RPG under your specifications?

I am not exactly the same opinion. This are impressions Skyrim is able to give. But only if you are not aware of its implementation.
Playing games is never without your own fantasies going along with what you experience. Everything you do.
But since Morrowind I see the same basic game elements, or game mechanics, over and over. This is a lack of conception, if you ask me.