and those I can't find but I'll most likely keep looking, jusy have to head to TIL and research a bit.



Because it wasn't the time to act the Dominion was a threat and the empire needed to be united if a victory against them would work, but Ulfric wouldn't listen and believes e can still get enough support from other provinces to attack the Dominion but did he try to get them before pushing the empire out? No he didn't and thats why he could've cost Tamriel the lives of thousands if not millions if he won the civil war, because he was to rash and didn't make allies.

Prove it. Prove that's exactly the line of thought Torygg had.

Ok ok I was actually wrong, Torygg didn't think that I'll admit I was wrong in fact when Ulfric came unannounced to Torygg everyone thought he'd came to speak more about independence because Torygg loved hearing Ulfric's speeches about it but still he is being rash about the civil war.

I wouldn't call it murder, but it was certainly dishonourable and in my opinion marred Ulfric Stormcloaks image.

Well according to UESP what Ulfric did was he went up to Torygg, challenged him to a duel, shouted at him before he could even react then killed him. But then again this is UESP, its not very trustworthy with lore.

Oh my sweet divines, will you read the book I've been linking you to for pages on end? Then you wouldn't say such ridiculous things while accusing other people of being misinformed.

I was under the impression that during the duel Ulfric did a "bring a gun to knife fight" sort of thing and then ran away when the guards came after him. It's sort of impossible to know though because the only information we have about the incident is heresy from NPC's.

I've read a few and a few articles, but just to let you know a lot of TES books are kinda one sided.

I'm aware of this, but if you had read it you'd at least be aware that moots are held to choose the high king right up until game time and if you'd really been paying attention to the game story you'd know Torygg was a young man and the WGC was signed some 30 years prior. If you're going to debate this kind of stuff, be honest with the source material. I care enough about the game story to consider any source someone points me to. You're chiding other people for not giving sources and you're not even looking at them when people do.

Ok om I'll admit i'm wrong and some types of lore tend to get jumbled around but doesn't this further prove that Torygg had nothing to do with the WGC and shouldn't really be blamed or called a traitor? A decent amount of stormcloaks considered him responsible even in the stormcloak propaganda book "Nords arise!"

According to what is said, Ulfric, as a Jarl, had the right to challenge Torryg to a duel/fight for the high king's throne. He did, and won, granted that it was through the use of the Thuum.

The question is to whether the challenge was lawful under Imperial law, rather than ancient Nordic law/practice. Apparently, it wasn't, otherwise Ulfric would not have been arrested...I would suggest that Ulfric knew this, otherwise he would not have run and would have there and then declared himself High King Ulfric by right of challenge. If that is the case, was it murder? Yes. Was it the opening death of a civil war? Yes. Was it an act of political terrorism? Yes.

The other aspect of this is that if Ulfric should have been high king by right of challenge and duel, then under certain circumstances the player's character should become high king, notwithstanding that having the dragonblood should put him or her in direct line for the Imperial throne, Talos II in other words.

According to UESP if Torygg was older and more experience then it would've been considered legal but due to the fact that he was unprepared, inexperienced and young it was seen as a crime, again this is UESP not really all the trustworthy.

Well that's an obviously biased piece, it even says that it's a recruitment tract. It looks like they're blaming Torygg for agreeing to the WGC after the fact and letting it be enforced, which is true. But no, he certainly didn't come up with the thing and it was the empire who tied his hands so that he had to either let it be enforced or turn against them.

and finally I want to say sorry for being incorrect and seeming like a jerk xD I kinda get heated up in debates and forget to actually check facts and say things I think are right....which I should really fix

I don't know if this is true in Elder Scrolls, but in medieval times you were considered a man grown when you hit puberty. Food for thought.

Yea.. true but sometimes the elder scrolls isn't as medievalish as people make it out to be.

I think you mean hearsay, not heresy.

Old enough to rule, old enough to butcher.

If he had been too young, then one would assume that a regent would have been ruling in his place pending his reaching rulable age.

Yeah but if any place in Elder scrolls is most likely to be like that, it's Skyrim. The land is a barbarian land.

Hmmm kinda, I always seen them as being more Norse and viking like then anything else.

As noted in http://www.imperial-library.info/content/war-betony-pro-daggerfall. Duels are completely legal. In Morrowind, if you want to get to the top position in the imperial legion faction you have to http://uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Grandmaster_Duel currently in the spot to the death. Dueling has been a really common practice in the empire.

Dueling was also common among Great House nobles who felt wronged by another noble but didn't want to use the Morag Tong, it was also one way to become Arch-mage and head of house Redoran or Telvanni,

With that in mind you can say the emperor Titus Medes the second is equally bad for accepting the white gold concordat. With those terms he sealed the faith of the Empire, causing a huge amount of unrest among the redguards and the Talos worshippers.

I'm of an open mind...

Although I do wonder why I am not both High King and Emperor....

To be honest...I kinda don't want to be either, I don't want to even be a Jarl, its too much work and I want to go dungeon diving.