The only people I ever see use actual sources are stormcloak supporters. Odd isn't it?

I was talking about Buliwyf.

Torygg was high king before the WGC, and his father was High king before him. Most of the time when the Moot doesn't pick a new high king it becomes lineage also empiredrone? Ha, and what do you call yourself for following stormcloak propaganda that doesn't even have a grain of truth to it?



Ha your kidding right? I rarely ever see sources used from stormcloak supporters, hell ask Treng I asked him to cite his stuff several times and he never did, he just kept saying it to me or ignoring me.


People told me that Tulius whimper out but he really didn't, I played the stormcloak questline also what coolness? The stormcloaks had almost nothing to their names besides a few nords among their ranks and Ulfric was nowhere near poisoned unless you actually used poison also

> Jesus wept

Ok now you're just getting full of yourself, have you even finished the Imperial side?

There you go again. "Stormcloaks lie!"

I really wish the Bethesda forums had an ignore feature.

They do, it's going to be on your menu tab at the top of the page on your profile.

Thanks!

And you always go Imperial lies, really you aren't even better and still avoid actually posting any sources, also I will take the ignoring me feature as a further way of trying to avoid saying I'm right.

Absolutely wrong. Ulfric was Jarl by the time the moot made him high king. Ulfric became jarl quite a few years after the WGC. As a secondary note, one of the loading screens notes "When the High King of Skyrim dies, a moot is called to decide the next High King." Usually they pick hereditary, but they always call the moot for it.


"Ulfric is power hungry and mad because ulfric is power hungry and mad"
Source?
"You can tell because Ulfric is power hungry and mad and lies about everything!"


A little reading comprehension would've let you realize he was referring to the scene in thirteenth warrior.

As for Tullius
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mLv7EyA9TV0#t=450s
Galmar: "Stand aside woman, we've come for the general"
Rikke: "He has given up. But I have not"

Okay people lets calm down and stop insulting each other personally

That depend on the Imperial lies that are the ones in question. The Bear of Markarth(book) for one is a false propaganda piece written by an Imperial schoolar to pin the whole situation of the Markarth Incident on Ulfric to make him look like the cause of it all when this is refuted by both the Jarl of Markarth and prisoners in Cidna Mine.

Imperial claims that Ulfric is trying to usurp the Throne are not lies at all, but they are a simplification of what appears to be a more complex motive on Ulfrics part(as I have understood it it involves powerlust, lack of faith in the Empire, the right to openly worship Talos, a wish for a independent Skyrim and a wish to fight the Thalmor sooner rather than later).

Stormcloak claims that the Empire are mere puppets of the Thalmor are also lies, but these seem to come from a misconception more than propaganda since the Thalmor try to make the Empire seem like their puppets, even though it is implied that the Empire is working against their infuence(the Thalmor position being hurt by an Imperial victory in Skyrim for one) and that the Empire is preparing for another war with the Dominion(both Rikke and Tullius implies this, just shy of saying it directly).

Just a few examples of how this situation is not clear cut.

Wheres the source that the Empire are the puppets of the Thalmor? Wheres the source that Tulius actually did whimper out? Wheres the source that the Empire wants to destroy nord culture and way of life?

I'm not the only who hasn't posted any sources.

Nice to see you don't read posts at all.

No I did, i'm just referring to the fact that Stormcloak supporters haven't posted any sources either as for the thirteenth warrior not everyone has seen that and surrendering isn't whimpering out, its smart and look at Tulius he failed and he would return to cyrodiil as a failure, to him thats proof enough that his life is over, but did Ulfric allow Tulius to leave even though he clearly gave up? Nope he had him killed, which was not honorable at all. :\ also I'm pretty sure Tulius fights after Rikke starts.

'

"Stormcloaks don't post sources"

*quotes post with youtube video of the exact scene*

Seriously, there's no point in debating with you. You don't want to debate.

I'm not calling your source invalid and I'm not saying you didn't post a source, but a lot of stormcloak supporters still don't post sources and this still doesn't prove ALL of the things the Stormcloak supporters claim, it supports one or two things.

Care to post yours then? I mean some people here are posting in good faith. I'd like the source that Ulfric is lying about his motives.

I didn't feel like reading through this entire thread, so if this has been mentioned before, I apologize.

In my quest to figure out more information on the Empire vs. Stormcloaks I decided to go talk to witnesses a.k.a. members of the "court" in the Blue Palace.

The new Jarl of Solitude (can't remember her name) says that Ulfric used his shout and then Torygg was "gone".
The court wizard seems to validate this event.

The Jarl also pointed out how much Torygg agreed with Ulfric's view, though he was more hesitant to turn his back on the empire due to economic and military support provided by them.
In addition, she brought up a brilliant point: Before Talos was a god, he was the man who formed the Empire. To turn your back on the mortal achievements of Talos, in the name of his god-hood, seems dumb.

TL;DR
Ulfric busted in to the Blue Palace and killed Torygg with some powerful shout. That's murder.

He's so lucky Alduin crashed the execution, it's a fit sentence for someone who put Skyrim & the Empire's future closer to Thalmor conquer

murder,even if torryg accepted...ulfruc not only used the voice but knew he would win

The court wizard says Ulfric showed up and challenged him to a duel and that Torygg accepted...

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak Proof that the Thalmor implanted lies about the empire into Ulfric during his imprisonment.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Torygg This has proof that Torygg actually agreed with Ulfric on the idea of making skyrim independent but knows its too soon and even tells Ulfric that, hell Torygg was kind inspired by Ulfric according to this in fact it also shows that Torygg might have even stood along side Ulfric if he stood firm with his beliefs, and it also suggests the reason why its seen as murder by some Jarls is because Torygg was young while Ulfric was in his prime.

I'll keep trying to find more sources but theres enough so far to prove that Torygg wasn't an imperial puppet.

These points have already been debunked earlier in the thread.

still valid nonetheless and it proves that most of Ulfric's beliefs that the empire are puppets of the Thalmor are pretty much lies.

Thats not what I asked for. I asked for sources that Ulfric's lying about his motives.

Ugh.

In the dossier, it doesn't say the Elves told him lies about the Emire. It says they lied, saying that information Ulfric was tortured for was instrumental in capturing the Imperial City.
As for Torygg, all that suggests is that Torygg didn't believe 100% in the Empire. He still was too cowtailed to act on his own, and that's why Ulfric challenged him.