Yes, but High Rock politics were forced upon them by the Bretons, mind you. They were trying to become a province with no interest in High Rock politics like you stated earlier.
Yes, I am aware of Trinimac and Malacath, and I think that was the only thing Gortwog failed at. Even if Trinimac existed somewhere out there, he doesn't seem to care for us anymore, but Malacath is with us.
Stricken with anger at his subjects turning on him, perhaps. Maybe Malacath is Trinimac, just angered, and cannot find peace until the Orsimer have a true home. I'm not trying to argue, just stating the Orsimer have gotten it the worst out of all the races. Yet, when the Empire sends in a few soldiers to cover the backs of survivors fleeing......they're heroes and care about the Orsimer.

It's just very two sided of the Empire, and they only care about Ulfric killing Torygg because they'd lose Skyrim.

Please take a moment to look back at the comments that my comment descended from. I'm saying IF Toryyg had won and the empire gave no excuse as to why they are letting him go, it would be unjust. And yes, by the way, Ulfric committed homicide (the act of a human killing another human, homicide is not always murder) Whether or not it is murder is the topic of this thread.

Oh I agree and I'm not starting an argument either but even if they became a full province that doesn't mean that Breton politics still wouldn't effect them, I mean...Orsinium would've been surrounded completely by bretons even as a province.

And the Jarl of Markarth at the time of the Markarth incident(not sure if it was Igmund or his father) directly violated the WGC. Did he recieve some backlash from that? Not that we know of, the Empire found a convenient scapegoat. So there is no reason to believe Torygg would get ay backlash from the Empire for killing Ulfric.

Yes, but the Bretons invading them would have been a huge crime in the Empire. Since they'd be their own Province with their own laws Bretons couldn't have forced anything upon them and couldn't invade them, the Empire would have been forced to intervene otherwise the other provinces would have shown worry that the same could happen to them. (Which happened to Morrowind. xD) Sadly they were forced to stay apart of High Rock, a death sentence I'm sure the Empire knew they were condemning them to. =(
Orsinium will be rebuilt, I'm sure of it. It will also be destroyed by the Bretons, I'm sure of it.

He wants to see Skyrim become self-determined. Being imprisoned and executed kind of interferes with that.

If Elisif is claiming that Ulfric used a Thu'um that in and of itself caused Torygg to be dismembered, i.e. shouted to pieces, then she is either lying about what she saw or was so disturbed by the outcome that she is unable to remember the incident clearly or else she never saw what happened in the first place. I am sympathetic enough to her grief to assume that the second possibility is the most likely. However any claims made by her or anyone that Ulfric literally shouted another human being into pieces cannot be taken seriously as an accurate report of what happened, because as I've already stated Ulfric does not know a shout that does that, the end.

This is not complete proof. Sure, it can be evidence, (and it weighs the odds heavily against the possibility of Toryyg being punished) but it doesn't say it's complete fact. We will never know for sure what would actually happen.

I'm more inclined to believe that it was Igmund, rather than his father. Remember, Hrolfdir died negotiating with the Forsworn (so much for a peaceful and justly ruled kingdom, huh?), I don't think he would still be negotiating if he already hired a militia to retake the city by force. It seems more plausible that the grief-striken Igmund would act rashly (violating the WGC) upon his father's death.

In a rebellion, it really does. Why do you think the Empire was so hot to kill Ulfric? No leader, no rebellion. Galmar Stone-Fist would probably have tried to carry on, but he couldn't have inspired the same loyalty that Ulfric did.


Sure, Igmund made the deal, but he had Imperial support in the matter. It lay in their interests to quash the rebellion, and they got it free, since they were able to turn on Ulfric and his militia afterwards. Pretty good deal for them. Right up until Ulfric killed their puppet and declared open war on them.

As someone said before, Torygg would be disposing of a potential threat to the Empire. What logical reason is there to punish him for it?

But he is a coward anyway, he ran and hid like a child frightened by shadows in the night before arriving in windhelm and claiming what he did was honorable, if he was captured and executed he would've became a martyr among those that believed in his cause which would further fuel the civil war.


The only people who actually say this are the guards so its more likely that it was a rumor, Elisif never actually claimed he shouted Torygg to peices only that he used his Thu'um which in itself should be considered a act of defilement of the teachings of Kyne thus making Ulfric a heretic towards the divines.


No, no he didn't have Imperial support, no where in any bits of lore was that confirmed also if Torygg was a puppet why did he agree that skyrim should be independent? That doesn't sound like something a puppet king would say, Torygg agreed with Ulfric but he said that now is not the time for it, why? Because you have a sleeping beast that still threatens all of humanity.

Agreed. Ulfric is for the Stormcloaks what MLK Jr. and RFK were for the civil rights movement.

No, it is not complete proof, but the danger of the war with the Dominion is a much larger threat to the Empire at the time than the Civil War is at this point. If they are not willing to punish almost plunging the Empire into war again I doubt they are willing to punish someone who did them a favor by killing someone who want to secceed.

They may very well have called it that, because it would support their goal of keeping Torygg on the throne while simultaneously rejoicing over the "just" death of a known dissenter. But it's not self defense when you agree to fight someone to the death and die in the process, unless you're willing to admit that anything and everything Ulfric did to prevent his own death in the duel also qualifies as self defense... because we have to assume that once the challenge was accepted, Torygg would've killed Ulfric if he had been able to do so. Both men are fighting with the intent of killing the other, therefore anything either one does to avoid being killed is self defense or else nothing they do qualifies.

This wasn't a surprise attack, this was a trial by combat that was agreed to by both men and entered into voluntarily. Torygg had a choice, he could have refused the challenge and lived with the consequences of that but he chose to fight instead. The only person responsible for Torygg's choice was Torygg.

But he is a coward anyway? You're being absolutely stubborn about this. How is he a coward? Not wanting to die isn't cowardish, it's being rational. I don't think the Imperials would've individually challenged him to a duel in an attempt to arrest him, one on one. He was outnumbered, greatly. You haven't even proven what I said when you quoted me wrong. He could be a martyr, but he's far more effective as a leader.

Off topic, but, who's your friend (in the avatar), and what does "IIRC" stand for (my noob question of the day)?

Sometimes its the other way around, a martyr can inspire more people then a leader who ran after supposedly laying his claim to the throne.

I'm not saying they would, I'm just saying it's possible. My point is, they could at least give a reason as to why they're letting him go, say self-defense or, like you said, eliminating a high priority target for the greater good of the Empire and Skyrim.

Ulfric is more of a Scipio Africanus than a Joan of Arc.

Rule out self-defense. By accepting the duel, Torygg became as much of an aggressor as Ulfric.

The Red pony is Big Macintosh and IIRC = if I remember/recall correctly
I think they would simply say "It was a duel both parties agreed to so it was not against the law". They would need no other justification, as violence is an accepted part of Nord culture and duels were at least legal in the Septim Empire. Doesn't seem to be too many changes in the laws with the Medes.

Name one person in Skyrim who is sent to the chopping block for standing in the way of Ulfric's goal of secession. Go ahead, I'll wait.

None of the Jarls who oppose him are killed, they aren't even exiled from the country, they're all alive in well in Elisif's basemant. All their "staff" and families that we know of are also alive and well when the war is over.

Even Elisif, the person who arguably has the greatest claim to oppose Ulfric's election by the moot if and when it comes to that... even Elisif is spared. In fact she gets to go right on being Jarl of Solitude, because - in stark contrast to all the Jarls who supported her - she swears fealty to the enemy as soon as her own position of privilege is really and truly in danger. Apparently keeping her throne meant more to her than either her hatred for Ulfric or whatever ideals she may have regarding Skyrim and its future. If I were one of the Jarls crowded into her basemant I'd be thinking long and hard about that while I was waiting for my turn to sleep in one of the few beds available.

No not a murder imo, a one on one fight between two willing combatants, it is a nord tradition so if torygg accepted the challenge then the populace of skyrim should respect and honour the outcome, the nords look for strong leaders who can at least use a sword so the imperials calling it murder is simply either prejudice towards ulfric or ignorance of the customs of the people whose land they live in.

from the rumors, he challenged him in battle and won. Murderer? i think not. I'm not pro stormcloak either im neutral.