So, do you think Ulfric murdered Torygg or did he fight a fair duel?

Personally I think it was a fair battle. Not fair as in no predetermined outcome, it was obvious from the moment the challenge was issued that Torygg would die if he accepted, but fair as in he did nothing that is considered immoral or illegal.

I don't think Ulfric was misusing the Voice, because the Way of the Voice is the philosophy preached by a Nord warleader who lost a war and apparently decided that if he couldn't win a war with the Thu'um, no one should. The Thu'um was given to the Nords so they could fight the dragons. And about Ulfric studying to become a Greybeard? He was a child. Breaking an oath you made as a child with little to no choice isn't something I see as negative here.

As for the result being predetermined I think that is a part of these duels. It is a warrior culture and a leader is supposed to be able to protect himself. His title as High King made Torygg fair game for any of the Jarls, no matter how much more experienced and skilled than him they are.

I think it was intended to be fair but ulfric kinda cheated with the voice, ripping him apart limb by limb....

Killing another person, for any reason, even justified, is murder. The deciding factor is if people wanted said murder or not. If everyone is okay with a justified murder, then no punishment will be issued.

Simple.

So if I want someone to die, I can justify killing them?
Oh everyone....But I don't need other people to justify my actions.

It really svcks when your a minority but your actually right. And no matter how many facts you have everyone dismisses because they are ignorant neanderthals.

Ok sorry this has nothing to do with Skyrim...I need to sleep..

"The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another."

How so? He is famous for beinng perhaps the only living person that is not a Dragonborn or Greybeard that know the Thu'um so Torygg would have known, and the traditions of Skyrim goes back to a time when a warleader was(as far as I have understood it) expected to know the Thu'um. Seems likely that the Voice is not an ability fthat would be penalized in a duel, since it was central to their culture.

That's not justification, an example would be if your a soldier and your ordered to kill another soldier, it's your job so you kill them.

I think when Ulfric challenged Torygg everyone, including Torygg, knew ulfric would win. Torygg only accepted the challenge since he was honor bound to do so. If it was the other way around, I don't believe Ulfric would have challenged him. It is kind of up to perception on wheather it was murder or not. I for one am in the not sure on this.

Had Ulfric lost, would the Stormclocks cry foul, and accuse their high king of murder?
Or would those in the imperial provinces state that it was but a fair dual?
Of course, had things fallen in their favour, they'd have preached the truth. But as we can see, if it doesn't fit their agenda; it's not going to happen.
The matter in regards to attack via the voice is null and void. Had he been a master mage in the school of destruction, would people cry it was unfair?
Because he had a talent and ability which his foe did not?
Of course not, it's a simple a pathetic excuse to start a war.

That isn't justified either. Unless it is self defense.

Well actually I guess there are many factors in war. But most war is unjustified. Starting a war is definitely unjustified.

Edit

Actually considering they are the most antimagic race in tamerial that mage would have been burned.

Not all war is unjustified, what if for example a country is using a single ethnic group as slaves, are your just suppose to ask them politely to let them go free?

This duel was anything but honorable, Ulfric used the voice to disarm Torygg before he could actually take his sword out and then ran him through, Ulfric is nothing but a cheating coward that needed to use the Thu'um in order to win a duel.

Using every tool you have to win a fight is not cheating. By that logic, using a tank against a soldier is "cheating". Using something to gain the upper hand is not cheating.

If Ulfric had lost despite using a shout, no one would accuse him of cheating, so why is it cheating when the outcome is reversed?

Even if there is a Shout that can do that, Ulfric doesn't know it. He knows two: Unrelenting Force and Disarm. Neither one results in the target being ripped apart.

You should note that any time you hear someone refer to Torygg being shouted to pieces by Ulfric's voice, the line is always prefaced with "They say..." meaning that what you are being told is something the NPC heard someone else say, not what they actually witnessed (and obviously not something that anyone witnessed, because Ulfric doesn't have the ability to do it). It's gossip, pure and simple, and if it's not as pure and simple as that then it's propaganda being spread deliberately by the opposition.

In answer to the OP's question: no, I don't think it was murder either. A challenge was issued and accepted.

If it was murder under "Imperial law" as some claim, then it would have been just as much a homicide if Torygg had been the victor and to portray him as the innocent victim simply because he lost is unfair and unsound. I doubt that the Empire would've pursued and punished Torygg for breaking this alleged law had Ulfric been the one who ended up dead... no, he would've been put down in the books as a brave and hardy warrior who defended his throne from an arrogant usurper, because that's what happens when "your man" wins. When the other guy wins, all of a sudden a crime has been committed because it gives you the pretense of moral authority when you try to take him down.

True. He would have make a really bad greybeard. And his egoism of bringing civil war to Skyrim when the Dominion is marching over Tamriel is also really good. I would never join Ulfric.

It was fair according to the rules, and he didn't cheat, but it was like picking a fight with a baby. Torygg didn't know Ulfric was going to duel him, and he could have declined. But there was a lot of pressure for him to accept, knowing he'd lose.

Ulfric didn't go to Solitude to fight with honour or do so fairly, he went there with the express purpose of killing Torygg to send a message. He abused Nordic tradition to further his own agenda, he knew damn well Torygg wouldn't decline.

Ulfric states he used unrelenting force to throw torygg down and then stabbed him though the chest with his sword.

That's the point: What's a baby doing running the country while the Thalmor march all over it?

Based on in game dialogue, it's pretty clear that Ulfric used Unrelenting Force, not Disarm. He says that his shout knocked Torygg down, not that it disarmed him. I have seen NOTHING in the game that states Torygg was disarmed. Given that the people claiming it was murder need to make Ulfric's behavior look as bad as possible, if Disarm had been used and Torygg was killed after having his weapon shouted out of his hands, then Ulfric's enemies would certainly say so. They do not. All accounts I've heard, from both sides and including obvious gossip, indicate that it was Unrelenting Force that was used.

And FWIW pretty much everybody agrees that Ulfric would have beaten Torygg handily even without the Thu'um. He didn't need to use it, and he didn't use it because he was a cheating coward who couldn't win without it. He used it to make a point about Nord history and traditions that predate this Empire or any other.

But Ulfric knew that Torygg didn't know how to use Thu'um thus making what he did dishonorable, Torygg knew Ulfric knew the voice and expected him to fight fair, did he? Nope he just used his voice which by nord culture is actually frowned upon after the Greybeards made it so the Thu'um a way of worshiping Kyne.


Sometimes leaders have to do things they don't agree with

He's doing exactly what Mommy Empire is telling him to do, which is to let Daddy Dominion come in and do whatever he likes until Mommy feels up to changing the locks and filing for a restraining order. Don't worry, she'll get around to it one of these days... but for now the beatings will just have to continue until morale improves.

...Thats probably one of the most horrible, in terms of moral, anologies I have ever heard and the sad part is its kinda right.