The Empire isn't actually allowed to interfere with local politics of a country unless it means the province is trying to secede, they have no real say in the Moot its like how they couldn't do anything in the grand council of Morrowind.


The Empire, anyone thats not stupid enough to believe half of the lies that come out of Ulfric's mouth would know that, plus its better then having your head chopped off and being made into an example for disagreeing with Ulfric's claim to the throne.



No it will pretty much still be skyrim and have the same customs, it just wouldn't be ruled like by an idiot, loud mouth tyrant


You do know that a large amount of Orcs were saved by the legions and given new home, right? The empire helped the Orcs out and its really not their fault that the state lords attacked but Orsinium wanted to be apart of the High Rock political factions and you know what, this is what happens in high rock, state lords fight each other for land. The Jarls did the same thing for a long time as did the Great houses of Morrowind

Thats a lie, when the bretons try to kill all of the orismers, the empire sacrificed a large amount of soldiers to save fleeing civilians. It was the medes.

Don't get me wrong, I know the Empire has often condoned immoral actions, (such as that). I'm just saying that we don't know what they actually would have done. And no matter what incident you show me that displays any form of parallel to this, we will never know for sure. What you showed me was not proof, but evidence. All we can really do is speculate.

Key word being fleeing, not to save Orsinium. Also, when were the Bretons punished for doing so? When that comes forward I will apologize, but until then I will continue to be displeased with the Empire.

That's possible. But maybe, by some small chance, there would be someone to stand against the unjust actions.

The entire civil war is about which customs should be followed. Ulfric used the old Nordic customs to legitimize his claim, and the Empire is saying those old ways should stay in the past.

The empire actually hasn't spread any propaganda around, I've read all the in-game books and talk to pretty much all the npcs and no where did they say anything about propaganda while Ulfric on the other hand has made several propaganda moves i.e the Empire is trying to destroy nord way of life, culture, they are nothing but puppets of the Thalmor. All propaganda with no grain of truth that is shown anywhere in game or through canon writings.


The war is about Ulfric's unjust claim to the throne, Thalmor lies implanted into Ulfric's head and his thirst for power, things that have actually been shown in-game to be correct.

But that has nothing to do with justice, but with the Empire protecting itself. The book Bear of Markarth and what happened to Ulfric in the Markarth incident is also the Empire protecting itself. Is the Empire the wrong choice in the CW? Probably not more than the Stormcloaks are, but I have no doubts they would be willing to let serious illegal actions which favors the Empire go unpunished. However, the duel was legal and the Empire only persicute Ulfric because he is trying to secceed.

But the Empire was interefering in Morrowind. They had a vested interest in fulfilling the prophecy of the Nerevarine since they knew it would end the dominion of the Tribunal, who were capable of putting up serious opposition to the Empire.


Uh, the Empire were the ones chopping off heads. Never actually see Ulfric do that to someone in game, iirc. Besides, Ulfric isn't lying, much. He's much better written that. Just like Tullius. They are both right, and both wrong.

Ulfric's greatest sin is timing, trying to get Skyrim to leave the Empire at a time when they could least afford it, having already lost Hammerfell, Argonia, the Summerset Isles, Valenwood, Elsweyr, and Morrowind (effectively, anyway). Without Skyrim, its just them and High Rock, and how long do you think they could hold that on their own? An Ulfric victory more or less signals the death of the Empire. A new alliance would probably rise from the ashes to fight the Thalmor, but the Cyrodiils wouldn't be running the show, and out of everything going on here, that is what they find unacceptable.

They never actually interfered with house politics, what the Nerevarine did for the houses was on his own and doesn't reflect the Empire, not to mention you can go the whole game without upsetting the balance of the great houses.

And no I honestly doubt that Ulfric will hold the throne for long before a decent amount of people revolt against his oppression, he does show signs of being oppressive and forceful towards the Jarls and I believe he isn't even fit to be a Jarl let along a high king, he has not proven himself as a leader nor has he actually managed to get a ton of support from a majority of the nords outside of Stormcloak territory, hell not even a decent amount of nords outside of the stormcloak ranks in stormcloak territory believe in his cause.

I'm all for an independent Skyrim, but Ulfric is not the man to lead such a kingdom, skyrim deserves a better leader and not another tyrant they've had enough of those in the passed.

As for the empire being the one to do all these "mass executions" you stormcloak fans often bring up, that was the only mass execution that was shown in game and there are no texts stating there where more, they were killing innocents they were killing traitors and a thief, the dragonborn just got in the way at the wrong time and was mistaken for a stormcloak supporter. As for how I know Ulfric would do executions once he is a king is because thats what tyrants do, they get rid of the "undesirables" that would challenge their rule.

Ulfric cheated. Plain and simple.

I know Nords have their pathetic sense of self worth and tradition, but I rather doubt tradition has it that the strongest Nord is the one who strikes down an unarmed man. Had Ulfric had even the slightest sense of decency, he would have fought Torygg in the traditional duel. Both sides have the same weapons, neither man has an advantage of position or surprise. Only then can a duel be considered fair and the winner declared to be the better warrior.

Ulfric didn't even have the decency to fight his ground when ambushed, preferring death to the headsman's axe to death in battle. I think that says more about him than any words.

He has a point, Ulfric fled Solitude before anyone could say anything. It was pretty much he killed Torygg then ran like a girl, a true nord would've stayed even if he was jailed further proving what he did was honorable and he will not say otherwise.

I never thought of this, this point also proves that Torggy is more of a nord then Ulfric, as he knew he was going die but refused to back down. Ulfric IS NOT a true nord.

You're misunderstanding me. Letting homicide go with no justifiable excuse is unjust and immoral, plain and simple.

That's the thing though, you're comparing a fantasy world set in medieval times to a modern day war. For them, using something like the Thu'um would have been "cheating" because only a very select few have the ability, had Ulfric actually fought Torygg then and only then would it have been considered a fair fight.

I personally don't care either way, I'd kill someone like Ulfric any day of the week, but that's just me.

i agree with him!

Don't care if he murdered him or not, I just know he is a whiney baby who can't handle different opinions and the word "no" like a child.

Giving yourself up to imperial milk drinkers so they can carry out their sham justice is not being a Nord, it's being an idiot.

Its standing up for what you believe in, a true nord warrior with honor would stand with pride over his victory and claim himself the better man but thats not what Ulfric did he ran like, something an "imperial milk drinker" would do and if he won doesn't that mean his claim to the Throne is legit now? So why run instead of staying your ground and further proving that you belong on the throne.

House politics were just a sideshow compared to the Tribunal. The Houses on their own were no threat to the Empire, too divided. But all Vivec needed to do was snap his fingers and it was war time. Morrowind only became part of the Empire by the Tribunal's sufferance, and they leveraged big concessions from the Empire in the process, which was the reason the Empire couldn't overtly interfere with House politics. Although you can imagine all kinds of soft influence going on with the Hlaalu......


Actually, Ulfric has proven himself to be a leader. Why else do you think so many follow him and name themselves Stormcloaks after him? And they follow him, not his cause. He's a cult of personality. He has a great deal of personal strength and righteous indignation, and people respond to that. He fought for the Empire in the Great War and suffered at the hands of the Thalmor, what terrors they inflicted on him I cannot imagine, only to see the Empire sue for peace with the Thalmor, using his god as a bargaining chip. He fought for the Empire at Markarth, shouting the Forsworn off the walls, all on the promise of being free to practice his beliefs, and they arrested him! He's been deeply wronged by the Empire, and draws strength from that. Men like Galmar Stone-Fist are ready to die for him, and his enemies like Rikke and Balgruuf respect him, even if they don't like him or agree with him. I imagine he would be king for quite some time.

He does have his flaws, but then, he wouldn't be interesting if he didn't.

It is not homicide, not after the law and that is the point. If it were why would the Imperial supporters lie about Ulfric coming in and simply shouting at the High King, not ever mentioning anything about a challenge?
And even if it were the Empire would make an excuse to justify it, because it took care of a problem they had that could(and did) escalate.

An army does not make a leader as for the Houses being a sideshow, thats not actually true the Tribunal can only act as mediators they can't actually force a house to do anything, not even indoril would do everything the Tribunal would do plus you had the houses that didn't care for them like a majority of Hlaalu and all of House Telvanni.

As for the Markarth incident, the Empire didn't promise him anything that was all Igmund and thats the only person you have to blame, Ulfric has not proven himself a true leader, he has not shown any favor for diplomacy instead he threatens Whiterun to join him or face his army, he favors war over words a quality a true leader with honor should never do.

Yes, it would trigger a moot, except Skyrim's government has been reduced to imperial puppet-dom and the jarls bought off... see again, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Skyrim%27s_Rule (did you ever read it the first time I posted it in response to your posts?) and Balgruuf admitting they took imperial gold in exchange for shutting up about the WGC. You can't play fair when the other guy has already stacked and marked the deck.

Sorry, just caught this now.

People fleeing after their home had been ruined, yes. My point was, in the case of it being between waring lords, the Bretons were allowed to walk free without any punishment.
While Ulfric kills one man and they declare him a criminal and go to war over it. So it goes like I said. The Orcs have to stay with the Empire, for there is no where for us, so they don't have to worry about us too much......just make sure to save a few survivors. Yet the Nords are trying to secede, so they must pull out all stops.

Also, no, Orsinium was applying for provincial status, not trying to be apart of High Rock's political games. Face it, the Orsimer were given the short end of the stick. I'm starting to get over it and with time I'll most likely side with the Empire. However, it is plain wrong to say the Empire cares for the Orsimer as much as the other races.

I thought I'd throw this in to go with my last statement. Read the last line about Tiber Septim in the section about Orsinium.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/The_Wild_Region

While they were trying to gain provincial status they also had to deal with the state lords and since Orsinium was in fact by all terms a city state thats meant the leader was considered a state lord by the Bretons, also just going to tell you this I really blame Malacath more since he cursed the leader of Orsinium for forcing his subjects to worship Trinimac instead of Malacath, who he considered to be someone else and still around, Trinimac though being Malacath it is just Malacath's former self and not who he is anymore.


Its better to give them gold then end up having the Jarls go and get themselves arrested so the Thalomor can secretly place their own puppets into the skyrim court, and Ulfric by no means should be allowed to pick who is allowed to be a jarl or not either.

Also just pointing this out the passage "But as I prepared to leave Skyrim, I could feel a change in the air, sense the trepidation of some of the good Nord people. Many seemed unhappy with the Empire's continued presence in their land. And the outlawing of the worship of Talos as the Ninth Divine - a stipulation of the White-gold concordat the peace treaty between the Empire and Aldmeri Dominion - has only strengthened that division." can be seen as bias as the author is a redguard from hammerfell, so just pointing this out before someone uses it as an example.