I still don't think it's murder. Torygg accepted the challenge. Although I do not think Ulfric should have challenged him. According to...someone in the blue palace, if Ulfric had asked Torygg to declare independence he probably would have. But Ulfric wouldn't do that because then he wouldnt have the power. Typing this out, I just became a supporter of the Empire.

It probably comes down to the exact same reason Ulfric can do no wrong in the eyes of his supporters.


That's the thing, though. They haven't been barbarians for a very long time. That's why it's the return to the "bad old days." It's a return to a time when any Jarl with an inkling of ambition can just walk in and kill another Jarl. That kind of a tradition would have a very destabilizing influence on a society. You talk about loyalty, but the tradition is from a time when Jarls killed each other and openly warred with each other for dominance. Many people would call that a step backwards.

One person suggests this- Sybille Stentor- and even she admits that Torygg never said anything about it to Ulfric or anyone else. Meanwhile the vendor at Bits and Pieces says that all Torygg did was give speeches about the empire. If he was willing to secede, he did a good job of hiding it.

The thing is that imperial interference has so corrupted Skyrim's civil institutions that people have lost faith in them. When that happens, the only thing that can settle it is the sword. That's as true in the real world as in Skyrim.

The Empire is streched so thin it can't even take out a local revolution. What hope would it have against the Thalmor? High Rock seems to be holding its own, if my data is up to date. Skyrim could do the same.


I'm not talking in game here, I'm talking outside of it, as ME. I don't want to see TES lose a culture. The Nords are being washed away and their being reformed into a slightly taller version of the Imperials. We're talking about our TES game loseing a RACE here. That should be sending up alarms in so many heads it isn't funny.

It was not a murder under any circumstances. Ulfric challenged Torygg, the boy had a deathwish (which was ultimately fulfilled) if he was considering accepting it. Torygg was young, inexperienced, and an Empire man through-and-through, he deserved to die. The fact that he was slain like a child proves just how unfit to rule he was. Ulfric didn't use the Thu'um to increase his chances of killing Torygg, he did it to further assert his claim.

Empire propaganda calls it murder so that they can brand Ulfric a criminal. If not, he would've become the High King and Skyrim would secede, weakening the Empire.

See above. Sybille Stentor says that, but no one else corroborates and there's game evidence of the opposite. Ulfric spoke out publically at a moot. If Torygg was inclined to support him, then that was the place to do it, rather than let Ulfric bear the responsibility of risking his neck (again, as he did in Markarth) for Skyrim's independence. The buck stops with the king. His waffling (if indeed he did waffle at all) and then his stubbornness at accepting the duel rather than stepping down meant that civil war was inevitable.

Personally I find his statement in Sovngarde that his only regret was leaving Elisif behind kind of pathetic. No thought about what was going to happen to his people?

'In Skyrim, we follow the traditions of our Fathers' Fathers, you'd do well to remember that' -Falk Firebeard, steward to Jarl Elisif the Fair.

Murder is an illegal killing resulting from an unjustifiable excuse. A justifiable excuse for killing another human being in our society is war, self-defense, etc.. (It's called homicide when it's not murder, by the way.) The idea of killing someone in fair battle in their nordic society was justifiable. The thing is, the empire doesn't care about their tradition. If you kill someone, even if the opponent accepts, it is illegal.

Torygg and his court validated the custom when he accepted the challenge and they let it happen.

Or atleast when it's convinient for the Empire. Do you think they would've called Torygg a murderer if he managed to kill Ulfric in the duel?

As many have stated, it wasn't murder because it wasn't an unlawful killing. By law, lethal duels are allowed, the duel was accepted, with everyone including their mothers knowing well before the duel that Ulfric could use the shout. It only became murder because Ulfric sought to remove Skyrim from the empire and become an independent nation. If it was illegal to kill someone in a duel, then the empire may as well burn the entire country of High Rock.

With or without the Empire, if the dragonborn was high king no jarl would challenge him - or start [censored] with other jarls - for fear of enraging the Dragonborn.

MAN why did I not put this together before?!

I think it would be best for all of Nirn if the Empire wiped out the Bretons of High Rock. The Empire would have more than my support then, and I think the world would be a better place.....

Upon the last inch of High Rock torched, everyone suddenly obtained CHIM, even the Thalmor, for it was High Rock and its citizens which become the underlying problem of everything in Tamriel.

We'll never know... You can't assume they wouldn't punish Torygg. Give me proof that reconciles your accusation with fact. Besides, I'm sure they would have called it self defense.

Jarl Igmund kept his seat even though he admits violating the WGC and throwing Ulfric under the bus for it. The empire even writes the propaganda for it.

Um bro, you do know that skyrim would've stayed its own province right? It wouldn't have been tuned into "northern cyrodiil" as you claim if it remained with the empire.

Also everyone you're making Torygg appear like he was only like 15...He is clearly above his mid 20s, he is by no definition a kid or baby.


Stormcloak propaganda calls the empire a puppet of the Thalmor and makes several claims to the Empire as being oppressive and corrupt despite him having to FORCE the Jarls to make him High King whereas the Empire didn't force the Jarls to make anyone High king even if you beat the CW for the Imperials, they still never force anyone to choose while Ulfric's persuasive "charm" is him reminding the Jarls whose armies populate their cities. Also thats not even true, a lot of Jarls would oppose his rule because Ulfric is not fit to rule skyrim, only 2 of the Jarls actually follow him, the jarl of winterhold doesn't care.


You know...a real Orc would just want to live in peace and return to Orsinium, not to further the violence and prove that war and bloodshed is the only thing they know. If the orcs demanded a mass genocide on Bretons it would not only weaken the empire but prove that both sides can't get over differences and it would only demonize the orcs even further.

Torygg was an Empire man, if he knew that duels weren't allowed (which is a very wierd thing to come from the Empire), then he wouldn't have accepted the challenge. Yes a moot is called, bu the Empire could make sure he stayed in power, either by overriding the authority of the moot or by bribing the Jarls like they did with the WGC. And if he knew the Empire wouldn't condone his actions, then he was an idiot for accepting in the first place and deserved to die more than he already did.

I believe they would not. It was no secret that Ulfric was against the Empire before the war started and I think the Empire would just think "Hey, the HIgh King took care of a potential threat to the Empire. Let us give him aa pat of the back."

Hey, I wonder what the Imperial-supporters prefer more, the Empire, or their gold?

They're the cause of most of the Orsimer's problems....
The fact that they can nearly commit genocide, but the Empire lets them walk free makes no sense.
When Ulfric kills a king, and a war is started......Just shows how the Empire thinks. The Orsimer will not leave them, for where do they have to go?
The Nords of Skyrim on the other hand, they could survive and thrive without the Empire. =/

Return to Orsinium for what, fifty years? Then have it destroyed by the Bretons yet again while the Empire turns a blind eye. No thank you, there cannot be peace for the Orsimer until the Bretons are gone, their actions have proved it time and time again. I want peace, I want the Orcs to return to Orsinium, but I know it will just be for a time while the Bretons still walk.

You think that if the Empire wins this Civil war Skyrim's going to get out of this with just a slap on the wrist? If the Empire wins, that will show all of Skyrim that the traditions of old hold no weight anymore. The Empire and it's laws will become the laws of Skyrim officially. It will, for all intensive perposes, be northern cyrodil. It will still be Skyrim on paper, but not in practice.