Nah I know that they wouldn't either way. It would be stupid to let Skyrim go.


It's definitely a cultural situation. Neither side is truly 'wrong'. And yep I meant by imperial standards and laws. I just don't think quoting the duels from 200 years ago that happened under a completely different dynasty means much lol.

I think its the fact that we have several significant different instance, one within the Legion itself, another where two Imperial vassals killed each other, and then theres the fact that you can be challenged in game to a couple of different duals shows that their not paticularly illegal. Things can always change of cource, but it appears to be a cheap excuse to just say 'things changed' to get out of it.

Unless I see actual proof that other duels in the 4th era weren't considered legal by the Empire I'm not going to buy into the 'their just doing it to save their own asses' theory.

There are of course Mage duels.

You can be challenged by mages in front of guards.

If you accept the duel, you will receive no help from the guards and they watch until one of you is dead.

If you refuse the duel and the mage attacks you anyways, the guards step in to help you. This goes for imperial and hold guards.

Theres always the mage who runs up to you and challenges you if you the archmage. Even in broad daylight, in the middle of town, surrounded by Imperial guards they do nothing. I understand why you wouldn't buy into it, but we do have at least one 4E example of it. You should also note that brawls between people isn't considered a crime, and realistically you can be killed in a brawl. Give em swords and its no different from a dual.

edit: ninjad!

Dunno. I'll ask his corpse the next time I feel obliged to grace Windhelm with my presence. His body hasn't despawned yet.

In all seriousness, in my opinion, Ulfric is a dreamer with way too much interest in living the fantasy life of a warrior king than he does actually being one. There's a touch of megalomania in him.

Besides, Ulfric's concern is for Skyrim, if you haven't been paying the [censored] attention. The rest of Tamriel isn't his unless it spills into his borders, and even then his borders are his concern.

Two scrub mages aren't exactly of the same importance as Jarls.



Although yes you can be people generally aren't, usually it ends when one person falls to their knees.

The point is as long as two people consent it isn't illegal, Jarls and Kings included, especially in Nordic law. The fact that even Imperial troops don't interviene does much to suggest that it isn't considered illegal in the Empire either, and to point out again, the Empire doesn't even acknowledge that Ulfric and Torygg agreed to a dual.

Besides, Ulfric's concern is for Skyrim, if you haven't been paying the [censored] attention. The rest of Tamriel isn't his unless it spills into his borders, and even then his borders are his concern.

actually, if you have been paying attention you'd note that Ulfric reachs out to High Rock and talks about working together to stop the Dominion.

That's Nordic law, evidently in Imperial law it is though. And until Skyrim actually breakd from the Empire Imperial law trumps Nord law.

An alliance is a fragile thing, and Ulfric seems QUITE the type to boot the Breton forces from Skyrim once he's gotten what he wants from them. He wants the throne of the High King and Sovereignty of Skyrim. The rest of it is beneath his notice as long as it doesn't affect the bone-headed drunkards he rules.

Not to mention High rock evidently being very self serving themselves. Who's to say they won't just say no to an alliance anyways.

No, we have nothing to suggest that other than the Empires rambling on about how he murdered the High King. Again, the Empire doesn't acknowledge it as a dual and has gone to great lengths to paint it as an assasination.


We have example in the past of independent nations gathering in alliance to face greater threats. All Flags Navy being the best example to destroy the Sload threat. Ulfric may be a 'Skyrim first' kinda guy, but hes shown great determination to undermine the Thalmor where ever they are.

It took Tiber Septim a giant Golem and a lot of [censored]-smacking to unite the Empire as one the first time. What the hell does a childish day dreamer like Ulfric have? National pride? Minor training in the Thu'um that he apparently used ONCE off camera?

If anything, Tiber Septim/Talos weeps in Aetherius over this whole "Skyrim for Nords!" business.
...Well, I wouldn't say weeps, more like face palming hard enough to pierce the heavens going "You idiots!"

Tiber has nothing to do with it and I'm not talking about Ulfric uniting Tamriel under a Nordic flag, I'm talking about independent unilateral support across Tamriel. Its not the first time people have put aside their difference to fight a greater threat; the Empire and Dominion even did it to fight the Maomer in the second era and all of Tamriel did it to put an end to the Sload threat after the Thrarisian plauge.

edit: People also need to get over 'Skyrim for the Nords', even Imperial alligned Nords say it. Its a general dialouge option for nordic combatants across the board.

Different times, different situations.

The Thalmor hadn't just been ruined in a war back then. It just got ruined in a war and it's ripe for the further ruining.

The Empire's 'rambling' is all I need when there is no good evidence to support that fact that duels to the death can still be considered legal in the Empire.

Well, in that case...Who the [censored] knows. That's Bethesda's call over what side officially wins the conflict, or they leave it vague.
Chances are highly likely the next game alone will be set far and disconnected from the events of Skyrim, in the far or at least distant future with vague and interpretive sense to let the player fill in his own blanks.

I do know one truth. Ulfric is dead. And will always die in any playthrough I feel the need to do the Civil War in. That's my truth, and how it always will be with me. Whether or not he would have led a great uprising against the Thalmor is a moot point, I severed that timeline personally.

We've given you examples, both present and past. You have nothing to refute them other than attemp to belittling the examples in an to justify the Empires actions.


Its you game, your free to play it how you want friend . However, that doesn't negate the point that regardless of you bias your acusations are ill founded and contradicted with numerous past examples.

You can hypothesize, speculate and ponder all you want, no one knows the future. Except the people who write these games. This whole discussion is really just a big What If conditions given.

Mentioning how they were legal under a dynasty that isn't even around anymore is just a cop out and yet again two scrub mages doesn't exactly hold the same importance to either law as two leaders getting into a fight. Until you find solid irrefutible proof that the empire has let other leaders duel in the fourth Era when it suite them you are the one making excuses for your side.

Exactly what I mean, your taking the evidence and tossing it away because it implicates the Empire in the wrong. Its also hardly two scrub mages, its the Archmage of the Collage of Winerhold and a challenger and every single brawl ever fought in game. The very fact neither is stoped or interviened by Imperial nor local troops is pretty solid evidence that as long as two people agree to the fight it isn't considered illegal. The only one lacking proof is your side, where as we can cite incidents.

Theres also the instance in the fight between the companion hopeful who accidently kills her sparing partner. Why would it not be considered murder? ohh, yeah, because they consented to the fight with the knowledge that one could possibly die. The lack of an example (presently) of a dual between two legal rulers doesn't cry proof that it is illegal.

Even a supporter should be able see the wrong in their chosen faction.

Really not my problem if you can't see the difference between the Empire caring when it's Jarls and when it's two nobodies. And yet again fist fights aren't generally fought to the death so why would any guard care about that. I bet if you beat your opponent to death they will care then. I like how your trying to attack me for ignoring what I don't like when your doing the same thing. As always with you stormcloaks just some pots complaining that the kettles are black.

Oh come off it.

The guards certainly don't care when you cut down the guy who challenges you to a fight and calls you a milk drinker, and as mentioned with the Companion hopeful in Whiterun, the guards didn't care that she killed her sparing partner. We have various examples of fights between two people, duals and other forms, that go un-attended by the guards. In the end, I'm not the one ignoring the proof presented, I'm simply refuting your lack of proof.

edit: also, nice generalization there. While I am a stormcloak supporter, as I mentioned various times, I used to be a staunch supporter of the Empire and strive to take a bi-partisan approach to it. I don't deny the Stormcloaks have their issues as well.

They were...President Andrew Jackson killed a few people in duels too if I remember my history.

Then provide actual evidence. You know, like we have. You asked for examples and we gave you them. The empire's broken its own laws before when it suited them, this is nothing new. How's that Talos ban going by the way? Pretty inconvenient law to uphold isn't it?

Tullius never states duels are illegal, or that the empire will not recognize the duel as legal or that a duel ever took place. They don't mention the duel at all whenever they speak of the event because it would damage their standing with the local populace. They don't mention that it was Igmund's father offering Talos worship in Markarth. Or that the jarl was the one slaughtering the reachmen after they had been captured. They had the one responsible for the incident willing to shove the blame onto someone who didn't agree with the outcome. Made things easier on them. It's simple self preservation. They feel they need skyrim, and they'll do what it takes to keep it. Now if only they had been in this sort of mindset 150 years ago.