Except for the ones who are lead by three Imperial soldiers down the road, you mean.

I'm just saying that it would be natural for people to be afraid to associate themselves with a man many hate, and a man that was killed for something they could be accused of out of fear.

There's a lot of people that are fine,yes, but also many people that are not. On the matter of Thorald, that was a lie. The imperial supporter in whiterun admits that much.

Oh, you mean the ones flagged as members of the Stormcloak faction, encourage you to join the Stormcloak faction if rescued, so on, and so forth? You're absolutely right, I have no idea why enemy combatants of all things would ever be taken as prisoner. I believe this point already came up.



Fear does a lot of things to a lot of people, but I have a hard time swallowing that people would be so casual in discussing how little they care about the death of their former ruler to anyone who asks, but be mysteriously tongue-tied and paranoid about so much as saying "We'll meet again in Sovngarde, brother." or one of the other quaint little lines Nords have after a man is dead.

Not "Talos be with you." not "I sure hope we kill all these Imperials soon." not "I can't wait to get Ulfric's face tattooed on my left ass cheek." just something meaningful to a man who's left the world. People who like each other tend to do these things, that's what leads me to believe he was either too insignificant to everyone in town to be worth the words being exhaled, or stories like the one the guy in the Winking Skeever has to offer are a little more commonplace than we're aware of.

No respect given to a dead man isn't a hallmark of a well liked man, especially when - as above - you consider even Legate Rikka puts her LIFE on the line in front of her superior officer by giving Ulfric a Talos prayer after spending so much time orchestrating his demise. Maybe she's just a really classy lady, but Nords don't really shy away from much.

And there are not "many" people who are not "fine". Other than nameless NPCs being escorted through the wilderness - random encounters, mind you, that are mathematically capable of never even ocurring in a playthrough - all I can think of is Thorald being captured, and the one fellow in Markarth being investigated. An investigation, mind you, that never comes to fruition unless you purposely intervene in their favor.

And while Thorald having aided them in battle may be a fib (I never passed the speech check so I can't validate or give my own interpretation), considering the fact no one else speaks about it leads me to believe he wasn't just casually abducted from his bed in the middle of the night. Why just him? Why one of the soldier sons and not the faux 'badass' daughter? The old lady? The ancient patriarch? It HAD to be a field abduction, either that or the Thalmor are even more idiotic than I already believe them to be - and I didn't think you could get lower than "pond scum equivalent."

One of the prolific sons of one of the most prolific families in what is supposed to be the most prominent Hold in Skyrim does not get haphazardly pulled out of their home without more people talking about it. That's the major problem, other than ONE example that's grey going either way, not a single NPC in Skyrim I've ever met has anecdotal evidence of the Thalmor dragging people off in the middle of the night uncontested. There are NO empty houses, NO one grieving their innocent, Thalmor abducted children, and even Northwatch Hold has, what, a Breton, a nameless Nord and an Argonian as their backup prisoners? No heaping piles of identifiable Nord corpses, no sprawling prison wings full of Talos worshipping Nords. For being the great enemy of the Nords, on a campaign solely to exterminate the Nords as people like to claim, being fed one Nord at a time, I don't see a lot of Nord victims that aren't soldiers during a time of war.

The only other Nord I can think of being held prisoner is at the Embassy, and only being held prisoner due to an affiliation with an Imperial organization.

Talking about the Kings death or saying he was a bad King hardly means you're a stormcloak supporter though. There wouldn't be any consequence for that, although Stormcloak supporters are usually associated with those thoughts. But there's a difference between saying something in public in front of the whole town for everyone to hear, and saying something to one person in your house. I'd be more inclined to say something like that to a stranger who doesnt live in my area and and will move on then someone else who knows others in my hold who can spread rumors.

If Roggvir was as bad as you say, why does Aldis call him a fine and honorable man?

Also, after the crowd disperses at the execution, he looks down at Roggvir's corpse and says "damn shame Roggvir, you were a good man."

A. I've never specifically said he was bad. I said he might not be that good if so few people care. It might be laziness in NPC personality design, too.

B. We're up to two people now in the whole city who have a positive opinion. Clearly my entire case is unraveling.



You can ask at just about any tavern for the latest rumors. Rumor-mongering and spreading gossip is obviously a major sub-culture in Skyrim when people direct you to the local tavern owners if they don't have anything interesting to say themselves, no one is ashamed of being interested in rumors or gossip. So with this being kind of a "thing", you'd still trust a complete stranger who's walking around talking to everyone with your secrets?

And I'd still say "Eh, Torygg wasn't even a good King" sounds more akin to "I don't know why everyone's all worked up about Ulfric killing him" than "Sovngarde awaits, Rogvir."

True. Why are we discussing if Rogvir was a good guy again?

We should get back to the "Uhuh" "not uh" match about Ulfric and such, lol.

Hell if I know. It came up, I saw a chance to start a conversation about one of the less filled-in NPCs, and then it was so.

Roggvir's job wasn't to be an arbriter of legal matters and foreign affairs with the Empire. He's just a guard. To move out of the way when your king gets killed is pretty lame. I think Captain Aldis saw that. He was a good man in general, but made a stupid decision here.

Not when the man who killed him didnt break a law. The King accepted, and the king lost. Period.

It isn't just nordic tradition. Imperials kill their commanders to take their roles, or have you forgotten about Morrowind?

The Imperials looked for any excuse they could, deemed it murder, and tried to kill an innocent man. Roggvir was too honorable for that.

Oooh.. "Period". I'm scared now. Please don't hurt me Mr. Authority Guy.

I only have trouble with those because then people start to think I'm a hardcoe Empire supporter, when I am in fact, not. Then that becomes the basis of their counterpoints and we begin to view the discussion at hand less as the merits of Ulfric Stormcloak as a man, and more of Ulfric Stormcloak as a symbol and/or "Empire svcks so whatevs breh."

Sarcasm instead of an intelligent response. never saw that on the internet before.
/Sarcasm

To the former. That is one of two instances out of the entire game series. It is also suggested by the NPC himself that you guys duel to see who is more appropriate to hold the title of "Knight of the Imperial Dragon." You don't just haphazardly shove a sword through his spine and declare yourself boss. The other time is crazy Archmage Trebonius who sees you as a threat and is trying to eliminate you. In either case, you never actually ask them to duel you, you never actually know if there's a rank between you and the top spot, etc. Hell, in the case of Trebonius you can even both be Arch-Mage peacefully, since he's insane and thinks that's how things work if you do the quest right.

Second. He was a gate guard. He is supposed to guard the gate. He obviously knew something was wrong, and I doubt anyone pulled him aside and gave him a thirty second rundown of exactly what happened. Since he was guarding the gate, he obviously didn't witness it first hand. If someone told him that's what happened, why would he have cause to believe them? If someone said that they just killed someone but it's totally fine, they did it legally, and you were supposed to keep people like that in line, would you just go "Oh, okay! Out ya go."

So at the very least, he's pretty bad at his job.

Yeah, you challenge them to honorable combat. Sound familiar?

False in the case of the Imperial Legion quest in Morrowind.

Because duels for the High Crown aren't a widely known affair, right?

To be clear, they challenge you.

You do not, they offer the duel/challenge to you.

Not false in the case of the Imperial Legion quest in Morrowind. You're challenged for the top spot, the incumbent clearly thinks he's got it in the bag. Since there's never any dialogue on your part other than menu options on the side, any inferrence of tone about how the conversation goes down beyond that is speculation. I certainly didn't challenge him for the title of Knight of the Imperial Dragon, I clicked "Advancement" and was told he'd fight me for it. Since he's the ultimate authority, and I'm not, I'd say the challenge was issued to me, not the other way around.

And again, just because someone runs up in a hurry and says they need to leave and they killed someone but it was TOTALLY LEGAL, I SWEAR, do you just let them go? He could very well have given Torygg a handshake and then plunged a dagger in his gut. Rogvir wouldn't know, he wasn't there to witness it. That makes him a pretty awful guard if he's willing to take such a dramatic claim at face value.

Try it out sometime in real life, try and get past a security guard or a police officer after making a really radical, clearly illegal claim but saying that it was justified. See if they move out of the way for ya.

To be fair, in real life we dont allow duels to the death, but still, you have a point.

I'm not a man of famous repute. Ulfric absolutely was.

And again, a challenge for the High Crown isn't done in a dank sewer without any witnesses or anyone knowing.

Life would be so much more interesting if we did, though.

/dreamy sigh

To be fair, famous men are not above the law. Even though Ulfric didnt break the law, Rogvir I assume wouldn't know that, being at the gate.

Your arguments are that Roggvir wouldn't know. My argument is that he absolutely couldn't have not known.

Why should I respond intelligently? You don't deserve it. You just constantly resort to some kind of in game legalese (none of which is clear), instead of just having a fun talk about the underlying issues. If you're just here to wave some flag of authority, then that's what I'll call you.

But he's at the gate, and the altercation happened at the palace.