So your defense is you'd step aside for someone if they were at least famous? That's what I'm coming away with this.

And for something so apparently legal and commonplace, he sure was in a hurry to leave, wasn't he? The point is, if someone is going to try and get past you - A GUARD - while professing to a pretty crazy action but assures you - WHO DIDN'T WITNESS THE EVENT - that it's fine, just open the door please, you should probably rethink whether or not you let them go.

In an alternate reality, let's say Ulfric did just straight up murder the King. No declaration, underhanded methods, etc, etc, then bolts for the gate and tells Rogvir that it was all legal, no need to ask anyone, okay thank you open the door NOW PLEASE, he'd have been wrong to let him go. He didn't have precognitive psychic powers for the alternative scenario to know if Ulfric was telling the truth or not, why would he have them in the standard scenario

lol, if you say so. you have issues buddy. period.
And how is (nordic law says the duel is legal) not clear?

How would he have known? Ulfric obviously wasn't casually strolling out of the city, he was apparently being pursued if they said they could have caught him. So you see a man being chased by a mob and assume "Hey, you know what? He's probably in the right of this one." despite the fact he's being pursued (potentially) by your superiors, the people who pay your salary, and the people you're supposed to be assisting in the protection of?

So Ulfric has no bannermen? No guards? there are no citizens who talk abashed of how Ulfric used the Thuum to shout Torygg to the ground? Also the duel happened instantenously as soon as Torygg was challenged as opposed to giving both parties time to prepare for combat?


See above.

Also in reference to leaving quickly, Imperials kill for any reason. They aren't honorable and they aren't just. Ulfric respresents their biggest foe because he's legally the biggest contender for High King.

How do I have issues now? I thought I was just sarcastic.

edit: In any case, I think Roggvir made a political choice. Not a legal choice. Regardless of the law, he would have let the law have due process. Not just let a kingkiller simply walk out. That's just common sense, unless you're politically motivated.

Since no one mentions Ulfric having a retinue in tow, no, I don't think he did. Especially since that could then be viewed as an invasion force, and they'd have to fight out of the city en masse since I doubt an entire squad of honor guard are going to be completely passive on their way out while their boss is being pursued.

I doubt every citizen in Solitude was present in the court, and those that were would probably be kind of, y'know, shocked at what had happened to go running to the gate guard and calmly explain how it was all completely fine.

And pretty much that's how it's described, yeah. "Walked right into his palace and killed him" tends to be the standing legend around both side's campfires. Since only a small, small handful of people even know what officially happened, I doubt it was on display for the entire province of Skyrim to view and validate.

No it isn't. If you're going to lie unabashed I'm not going to bother arguing with you.

What, a person with issues cant be sarcastic? Drop it, man. Not sure why you're all bothered about me putting a.Period. at the end of my statement.

Ha. I'd go places with that one, but I digress.

Yes, Stormcloak soldiers are coded with the same generic guard speak that includes a handful of Ulfric killed the High King quotes. This could easily be laziness on the designer's fault, or it could be the stirrings of morale boosting awe in their commander, regardless, they say things, rumor-esque, unfounded things which generally infers that they don't really know all the facts either. It was likely not a huge public spectacle done before a massive audience, especially since, realistically, any number of Torygg's supporters who aren't Nords and don't give a squirt of dragon urine about "tradition" would have had an abundant amount of time to "accidentally" intervene.

If I can skip back to this. Did anyone else read the whole Battle-Born-Grey-Mane dispute as less insidious. The imperial missive suggests that the Battle-Borns had no idea what had befallen Thorald. They undoubtedly heard he was missing and used their contacts within the Empire to score some information. The missive from Tullius doesn't sound like a "job well done" sort of affair. Tullius seems a little ticked about the whole affair, as if the Thalmor had forced the Empire's hand, and he'd rather forget the entire thing happened. The fact that the Battle-Borns inquired at all indicates to me that their old friendship with the Grey-Manes isn't completely kaput. The political differences have driven a wedge between the two families, but at the core of things, they are both still two families who've lived along side each other for generations.

Or maybe that's just me trying to read into it as something more than a cheap Romeo and Juliet knockoff.

I'm not bothered. I just think it's goofy. You can solidify your discussions more than just with "Period", right? Are you a school principal or something. We're at the Bethesda forums.. what's with all the serious conviction and stuff? lol..

I'd say it's entirely possible, but there are many more who'd just say it's lazy writing on Bethesda's part because "Grr, Bethesda, grr." I think taking ANY situation and NPC in game at their face value is an extremely quick way to not be very interested in the game, because everyone either ends up sitting in your "Like" or "Dislike" piles, with no depth to them.

What does it matter if the guy who sends you off to be tortured has a smile on his face so to speak or not? I dont get why people keep saying this. I'm sure most people know that Tullius doesn't enjoy it, but he still does it.

Last time I checked, adding a sense of finality to a statement with Period isnt against forum rules, but derailing a topic with something so silly as this is. Let it go.

Because people like yourself keep portraying the Empire as willingly evil instead of being stuck in a [censored] situation.

We could speculate all day about what the alternative might have been, though. I think there's a painful lack of little snippets in the game. I don't want everything spelled out for me, but it takes a lot of the merit out of debates and arguments when people are essentially keen to look at the one side of a brilliant multi-surfaced jewel they're told to and base the rest of their points around that.

Maybe selling out the one meant less Thalmor pressure on the region as a whole? Maybe they were threatening to go in force and take the whole family if the Legion didn't manage to arrest just Thorald? We'll never know. And yes, I know one person being tortured to save many doesn't seem like much of a silver lining for the person in the vices, but the old diatribe of "the few for the many" has served us all very well throughout history, and self-centered individualism on a massive scale would have definitely left us in a much different world today.

Show me an example where I say they're evil. I never said that. Never even suggested it. I just said it doesnt matter if a person enjoys the wrong that they do or not. Dont generalize me with people please. If you dont want me generalizing empire supporters as apologists, dont do the same to me and say I just think they're evil. If anything, my statement would show that I think that they're in a bad situation by saying Tulius doesnt enjoy what he does. All I said is it doesnt matter. What he does is still wrong.

In fact, many who have read my posts will know that I have said on multiple occasions that neither the Empire or the Stormcloaks are "Evil". That word doesn't belong anywhere in the civil war unless you mention the Thalmor. Your accusation is baseless.

I very well be making this up, but I thought I heard that Rogvir had snuck away and witnessed the dual in the Blue Palace, then let Ulfric slip by. I don't remember specifically where I heard it, but in his case I thought he witnessed it.


The Empire is in a very messed up situation, thats for sure, but that doesn't excuse their actions in my book. My view on it however is well stated throughout various threads, as well as my criticisms towards their current approach to dealing with the Thalmor threat.

Ya see, I like these threads because they spark heated debates from two sides that usually wind up being more traditionally Nordic than the Nords in Skyrim.

Lots of shouting and fighting, probably punctuated by insults to the other party's mother.

Also shouting.

I mentioned that already, but I thought it was worth noting that you don't have to have Akatosh as a pappy or a beard of grey to use it well.

It should be noted that was the way the last empire worked, 200 years ago. I haven't seen any proof that is the way the current Empire does things.

Not saying you're wrong, its a good point, but I remember in another thread people were saying it was the same Empire as the Septim ruled one, just different rulers. I dont believe that though, which is why I stand by your statement.

For the most part it seems like the same rules but that doesn't mean they kept every law and every tradition. I've seen no proof that duels are still legal. In fact with them saying the High King duel is Illegal the only thing I can assume is to them it truely is until I see proof of otherwise.

Although I agree, you dont think the Empire would just stand by and allow Ulfric to proceed as normal do you? They cant risk losing Skyrim.

I always pictured it as a cultural thing, especially given the nordic influence in the south and with the legion being largely from Colovia, the part of Cyrodiil with the most nordic influence. I think its also important to note that the Empire is largely ignoring the 'dual' part of the equasion, prefering to paint it as a picture of murder rather than consenting combat between two individuals.

edit: When you say you see no evidence that duals are still legal, I assume you mean by Imperial standards right?