The Dominion cannot realistically invade Skyrim, even if their military might is supperior and there are two reasons for that:
1. The Imperial Legion
2. Hammerfell

Both of these hate the Dominion with a passion. Are we really to expect that they wouldn't use the opportunity to attack the Dominion if hey started to send soldiers north? The Dominion cannot move any major fighting force away from their hometurf without putting them at a major risk of being invaded. And after they found ut what happened to their army when the Legion took back the Imperial City, I am not sure they want to challenge that beast just yet.

Does this mean that the Stormcloaks are the right choice? Not really, but neither are the Imperials as far as I am concerned. Both seems viable options and either is better than none.

Yes they do.

Again, talking about what the Thalmor want, as in, their hopes and desires, not necessarily what will happen. Remember that in this scenario, the armies of Skyrim and the Empire both have been wasted through years of pointless bloodshed that was secretly instigated by the Thalmor in the first place in an effort to weaken their foes.

I think his ambitions are much too large for any actual competence he holds. He would already be dead if not for Alduin.

Neither does Tullius and the Legion.


Unless you believe that "people of the Reach" only includes those now known as Forsworn, then this statement makes no sense.

Ulfric led a Nord militia in the service of the Jarl(s) of Markarth (Igmund, his father, or both depending on when the father died) that participated in the retaking of the hold after a Forsworn uprising. As to the allegations of massacres and other atrocities taking place, many eyewitnesses and survivors of the events in question pin the blame as much or solely on the Jarl(s) of Markarth, not on Ulfric or others who fought there on behalf of the city's Nord rulers. Go to Markarth and ask around.


You might also want to go to Solitude and talk to a few people. The court mage, for instance, will tell you flat out that Torygg accepted the challenge. No one anywhere denies that a challenge was issued AND accepted under the established tradition for such things.

And if Torygg couldn't put up a good fight in his own defense after accepting... well, that really was kinda the point, you know?


Yes, because no soldier worth his salt has ever been captured by enemy forces after being ambushed and outnumbered. *rolls eyes*


And so we're back to that. It's only through the Dovahkiin siding with the Legion that Tullius is able to win the civil war, so using the intervention of the Dovahkiin to claim that either side is/was weaker than the other is pointless.

You sir, are an oracle of knowledge. There is much wisdom here to mull over. Is this a belief of all elven kind or just the altmer?

Just the Altmer IIRC.

Refer to my post above regarding the duel. Ulfric had an unfair advantage and Torygg stood no chance, even if they would have been evenly matched in a duel of pure arms (we don't know whether he would have or not). Torygg bravely accepted the challenge, Ulfric, through his cowardice, used the Voice to an unfair advantage. He knocked Torygg to the ground and then stabbed him. When you do something like that, it's less a duel, and more murder.. and Elisif had to watch.

Both sides are right. It was a duel, but it was also murder. It was certainly not an honorable duel, which is why Ulfric doesn't deserve to just take the throne after that. Pretty sure Nord tradition surrounding duels probably involves not cheating. I think the Voice probably counts when you have it and the other guy doesn't. If you join the companions, you have to duel someone to prove your worth. If you use the Voice, they get angry with you and say it's a no no. I'm guessing the rules and feelings surrounding duels are probably pretty standard.

Torygg was brave. Ulfric was cowardly and refused to face Torygg on even footing. I mean, it's not like every other guy can use the Thu'um or anything, it's extraordinarily rare.

During that duel, Torygg may have fallen, but he was also the only true Nord between the two of them.

Indeed, primarily the Altmer. The Redguard also demonize Lorkhan, but

This shows a complete lack logical and critical thinking on behalf of the Thalmor fear mongers that I keep talking about. Its illogical, and down right impossible for the Dominion to strike at Skyrim even with their 'amazing navy' since skill at sea doesn't negate the need for friendly ports, massive supply lines and the shear improbability of being able to ship that many people over that far of a distance to hit a nation with an inhospitable coast line and people. Theres no example of people being able to transport mass numbers through teleportation, and even then teleportation requires a marker on the other side, something thats simply illogical to believe you could sustain. You can't even find modern example of such a feat using modern navies, and even our ships in World War Two had to island hop to get to within striking distance of Japan.


Even with this, your hypothetical situation is completely and totally unrealistic and undoable.



Torygg was a fool, and plunged his former Kingdom into a chaos when all he had to do refuse the dual. He chose honor over his people.

People really need to get this straight: Duels in Skyrim are not about what is fair, they are about proving who is stronger. Ulfirc also flat out tell you that the death of Torygg was to prove how weak they had become.

Pretty much just the Thalmor AFAIK, and they do not necessarily represent the beliefs and goals of all Altmer. I would hazard a guess that the average Altmer living in the Dominion doesn't even know what they're really up to or what their ultimate, more arcane goals are. And they don't really want to destroy the world, destroying the world is really Alduin's gig, he eats it up and that's the end of the kalpa and the clock resets to 0:00:00 but lo and behold it just starts ticking again and here we are in the next kalpa with a brand new world for strange and wonderful things to happen on. That's not what the Thalmor want. They want to unmake the world and eliminate all possibility of it ever having been made (or being made again). It's the difference between killing someone you want to get rid of, and making it so that the person was never born and can never ever be born.

I disagree, but at least you make a more compelling argument than anyone else here. It's nice to see another student of history. Let's agree to disagree.

Torygg was a fool, and plunged his former Kingdom into a chaos when all he had to do refuse the dual. He chose honor over his people.

It doesn't work that way. As a Nord, he had to accept, or he would have been seen as unfit to rule regardless. Ulfric was going to undermine his power base no matter the outcome that day, and the arrogant bastard knew it.

The general consensus was that Ulfric would have won without using the Thu'um, having far more experience, training, and skill as a warrior.

The Thu'um was not used to gain an "unfair" advantage. It was used to make a point.


This is BS as there is no such thing as an "even footing" in any martial encounter, even if terms are set regarding allowed weapons there will always be differences in skill, experience, and a myriad other things.

And again, Ulfric did not use the Thu'um to win. He used the Thu'um to make a point. He didn't need it to win.

Exactly the point I was attempting to articulate.

I can't believe I'm reading this topic, I obviously simply can't stay away.. These arguments are interesting, but kinda pointless since everyone keeps telling each other the same things over and over. Maybe we should just kick the Ulfric Fangirl thread in Cheats back to life and start joking around instead.

He thinks the empire is the pawn of the Thalmor. He may be right. I think his plans would eventually involve re-establishing the empire, and not with himself in charge. But the methods he uses are bad. Like clearly, Ulfric isnt racist. But he lets that racist attitude spread because it furthers his goals -- at least in the short term.

He seems to be making the same moves as the Thalmor, who (at least the ones we meet in Skyrim, where its clear they do not want to be and are probably there as punishment more than anything) use their own ideas of racial superiority as a guiding principal. It clearly worked, and Ulfric is clearly not stupid.

I just think he has no idea what to do if he wins. No endgame.

History, especially military history, is a great passion of mine and I've put alot of time and study into it. I would really like to see more people take a look at this logically rather than buying into all the propaganda thrown about by the Empire. I don't see how anyone who knows TES lore or real life military actions/logistics/limitations could buy into the paper dragon that is the Aldmeri Dominion unless its driven by fear. I can always agree to disagree though.


Sure it does. He didn't have to accept, he could have refused and it would have called into action the Moot but theres not enough raw support for Ulfric to realy legitimize his claim until after Torygg was dead. Chances are Toryggs rule would have been upheld by the Moot, but Torygg didn't think that far.

So, as far as i underrstand it, the Thalmor are a political movement that arent representative of the entire altmer population. They also have a somewhat tenuous relationship with the bosmer?

Hey, manners. No need to be like that. We can be civil here.


You are mincing words. I meant specifically that they both stand against one another in a test of pure arms. that seems to be how the Nords do things. The Companions object if you use the voice during your duel, and the people of Skyrim who object to the King's murder always mention that he used the Thu'um to do so. I think it's very apparent,considering available information, that it was Ulfric's use of the voice that made them cry foul more than anything. If Ulfric had truly honored their traditions, he wouldn't have had to flee the city afterwards.



We don't know that he didn't need it to win. Is it probable? Yes, certainly, but we don't know. Torygg could have pulled out a win in a test of pure arms. Improbable but possible. What we do know is that almost every time a member of the general populace comments negatively on Ulfric's actions, they mention that he used the Voice to do it. It's probably the same thing as agreeing to a fist fight, only for one side to pull out a gun and start shooting. A truly dishonorable move.

The Thalmor are the religious right, ultra conservative and the former rulers of the Old Aldmeri Dominion as well (in the Second Era). They came into power after some very suave movements in the Oblivion crisis. Their relationship with the Bosmer is one of pure useage, previously they were looked down upon for taking 'manish' wives and the 'honored cousins' line is nothing but bull.

Possible, but I can't speak to that. I think even if the Moot didn't elect Ulfric the new High King then and there, I doubt Torygg would have kept his throne.

No one else other than Ulfric made a claim on the throne. Without a another feasible canidate theres no reason to think they would simply take his throne for the hell of it.


Come on now, you saw the Empires reaction to Ulfrics dual with Torygg. Don't give us the line about how he wouldn't have had to flee if it was 'honored their traditions'. Ulfrics crime, as spoken from Tullius' lips, was killing Torygg. Had he stayed, he would have been executed.

Definitely bull. They glad-heartedly expend their lives as conscripted fodder in their armies and lead racial purges against them in Valenwood.

Perhaps, but if the Nords there had thought that Ulfric had acted honorably and supported him, the Empire would have had a much larger mess on its hands.