So...Ulfric : V - Skyrim

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:08 pm

No one else other than Ulfric made a claim on the throne. Without a another feasible canidate theres no reason to think they would simply take his throne for the hell of it.

We're in hypothetical territory here. We only know how things turned out when Elisif was granted the title of Jarl and Ulfric killed Torygg through dishonorable means and fled the city. We can speculate all we want, but in reality, we don't know that, should Torygg dishonor himself, that other Jarls might not try to make a claim or put forth other candidates in the Moot.

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:17 am

History, especially military history, is a great passion of mine and I've put alot of time and study into it. I would really like to see more people take a look at this logically rather than buying into all the propaganda thrown about by the Empire. I don't see how anyone who knows TES lore or real life military actions/logistics/limitations could buy into the paper dragon that is the Aldmeri Dominion unless its driven by fear. I can always agree to disagree though.

Economic history. I understand and make a lot of points about logistics and how you need more than just "more guys" to win a war. Check the locked thread about which side one should pick if you want to see any of my arguments, whether you agree or not. I don't want to derail the thread by reiterating them here.

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:19 pm

Ulfric's Empire? 'fraid not...

Notwithstanding anything else, you don't unite an empire by polarising elements of it...meaning you don't kill a High King favoured by the Empire, who has an imperial wife (the distinct impression I get from her "you stubborn nords" comments), and do so without at least attempting to get the support of the other Jarls before hand.

I think his vision is Ulfric's Skyrim, and that's probably as far as it goes now...perhaps there is a future for an Ulfric united Skyrim taking on the Empire, but that would likely end up with a three way war or a wholly fragmented Empire.

The WGC is the fly in the ointment...The Thalmor can step in to enforce it, or step in to defend it. Although from what I've read and seen in game, there doesn't seem to be much of an excuse needed for Nords and Elves to kill each other.

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:33 pm

Neither does Tullius and the Legion.
...
Yes, because no soldier worth his salt has ever been captured by enemy forces after being ambushed and outnumbered. *rolls eyes*
...
And so we're back to that. It's only through the Dovahkiin siding with the Legion that Tullius is able to win the civil war, so using the intervention of the Dovahkiin to claim that either side is/was weaker than the other is pointless.

Tullius had Solitude. He sat side by side with the Queen. He had half of Skyrim and he had Ulfric as captive and was about to take his head off. Regardless of numbers Ulfric still got caught. If he was a good "general" then he wouldn't have let him self become so vulnerable.

So yes, until the dragon attacked and destroyed Helgen, the general had much (*rolls eyes* :rolleyes:

)

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:04 pm

Perhaps, but if the Nords there had thought that Ulfric had acted honorably and supported him, the Empire would have had a much larger mess on its hands.

Tullius flat out tells us he doesn't care about Nords or their tradition/laws. There are only a very few witness to the ordeal, and those who out right supported Ulfric were murdered. Make no mistake the guardsmen wasn't 'executed' in terms of he did something wrong and is being martially punished, he was publically murdered for holding true to his values and that of their people. Even the people in the capital only know what the Empire tells them, and that is that Ulfric murdered the High King. Hardly anyone talks of a dual, and thats because the Empire knows that if everyone knew it was an honorable dual in the old way then people would have been up in arms about it, and half of Skyrim is.

Economic history. I understand and make a lot of points about logistics and how you need more than just "more guys" to win a war. Check the locked thread about which side one should pick if you want to see any of my arguments, whether you agree or not. I don't want to derail the thread by reiterating them here.

Economic history? what exactly do you mean? and Aye, the last thread was locked before I could respond to your reply to me. Which by the way, I do understand what a pyriic victory is, and many of your points weren't quite right.

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:12 pm

I think Ulfric is mainly trying to make Skyrim independent and self-sufficient, so that they can make like Hammerfell and hold the Thalmor at bay. They don't need to beat the elves, they just need to stop them. I think most of the races are set up so they could wreck the Thalmor if they went toe-to-toe, to be honest. The Redguards did it, the Khajiit could do it, the Argonians would destroy them, and the Bosmer would likely, as well. The Nords have a large amount of soldiers, and could employ the stronghold orcs if they tried hard enough and get aid from the Dunmer. I think the Thalmor would be very hard pressed to take Skyrim if the Empire wasn't involved.

If Ulfric has thought ahead that far, that's probably his main plan. Take a lesson from the Redguards and fight for yourself. I imagine if the races were smart enough to group together as one they would wreck the Thalmor, which seems to be the Empire's plan, just in the future. I doubt Ulfric is planning that, though, as he seems to be more focused on Skyrim and the Nords.

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:16 pm

Take a lesson from the Redguards and fight for yourself.

Prepare for the sleugh of people who are going to tell you the Thalmor just decided to leave and that the Ra'ga didn't really beat them back, the Thalmor were just dune with them :rolleyes:

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:45 pm

Prepare for the sleugh of people who are going to tell you the Thalmor just decided to leave and that the Ra'ga didn't really beat them back, the Thalmor were just dune with them :rolleyes:

That's the point I was making. Skyrim doesn't have to beat the Thalmor, they just have to stop them. It'd be very difficult to defeat the Nord armies by themselves. Add onto that the support from the orcs and dark elves they could obtain and the very hard terrain and climate for anybody other than the Nords, and you get a nasty recipe for Thalmor Ass Beating.

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:29 pm

People seem to forget that the nords have a long history of kicking the ass of people that mess with them. It's why the first thing Tiber did after becoming leader of Cuhlecains army was to go impress the nords and get them on his side before they became contentious.

During the Simulacrum they took on both Hammerfell and High Rock at the same time and won. (See: War of Bend'r Mahk)

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:35 pm

Economic history? what exactly do you mean?

World history classes with a strong emphasis on the economic impact of various events, and the economics behind them. If I'm not making a lot of sense, it's because I'm ridiculously tired (zombie mode). I'm having trouble articulating my thoughts.

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:54 pm

and many of your points weren't quite right.

No, they were definitely right.

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:51 pm

World history classes with a strong emphasis on the economic impact of various events, and the economics behind them. If I'm not making a lot of sense, it's because I'm ridiculously tired (zombie mode). I'm having trouble articulating my thoughts.

I meant how does that factor in? what does it have to do with your argument?

No, they were definitely right.

and I respectfully disagree.

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:28 am

If Skyrim becomes truly independent, I have no doubts that the Dominion will waste no time in sending everything they have at it. It's the idea foothold, and easily crushed.

Good luck actually getting into the country. Everyone jumps on the lore train of, "summerset can't be invaded!" but Skyrim is the exact same way. The terrain is hard to breach, the nords know it and the Elves don't, and what's more, the Nedes (who became Nords) are the ONLY race to have ever successfully invaded and won Skyrim.

The Thalmor can't do anything to invade Skyrim.

» Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:58 am

Refer to my post above regarding the duel. Ulfric had an unfair advantage and Torygg stood no chance, even if they would have been evenly matched in a duel of pure arms (we don't know whether he would have or not). Torygg bravely accepted the challenge, Ulfric, through his cowardice, used the Voice to an unfair advantage. He knocked Torygg to the ground and then stabbed him. When you do something like that, it's less a duel, and more murder.. and Elisif had to watch.

Both sides are right. It was a duel, but it was also murder. It was certainly not an honorable duel, which is why Ulfric doesn't deserve to just take the throne after that. Pretty sure Nord tradition surrounding duels probably involves not cheating. I think the Voice probably counts when you have it and the other guy doesn't. If you join the companions, you have to duel someone to prove your worth. If you use the Voice, they get angry with you and say it's a no no. I'm guessing the rules and feelings surrounding duels are probably pretty standard.

Torygg was brave. Ulfric was cowardly and refused to face Torygg on even footing. I mean, it's not like every other guy can use the Thu'um or anything, it's extraordinarily rare.

During that duel, Torygg may have fallen, but he was also the only true Nord between the two of them.

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/918991495487773355/9EA61D3A980C8F9C5DBD9002B89EEE8D8DD018C8/
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/918991495487770181/40115596A9B4E464C6F28FCED1789098924E9B9D/

Also there's nothing in Nord tradition against the Thuum.

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:46 pm

Ulfric wishes to kick the Empire out of Skyrim, and defeat the Thalmor. General Tullius wants to defeat the Thalmor, and came into Skyrim, but when they did, Ulfric challenged Torygg to a "Ancient Nord Duel" and Tullius thought it was considered murder(As he had NO IDEA that it was a duel).

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:12 pm

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/918991495487773355/9EA61D3A980C8F9C5DBD9002B89EEE8D8DD018C8/
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/918991495487770181/40115596A9B4E464C6F28FCED1789098924E9B9D/

Also there's nothing in Nord tradition against the Thuum.

So many screenshots that support your position while you seem to conveniently ignore there's generally just as many people - natives, no less - saying similar things about the Stormcloaks. I guess good job, though, you found a shopkeeper that didn't care for the King, who's married to a man who doesn't have a strong opinion about who's on the throne, just that he'll serve it blindly.

Pack up the thread, we're all rubes for ever doubting the reign of High King Tantrum - er, Ulfric. What man amongst us can stand against such damning and watertight evidence.

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:34 pm

Ulfric wishes to kick the Empire out of Skyrim, and defeat the Thalmor. General Tullius wants to defeat the Thalmor, and came into Skyrim, but when they did, Ulfric challenged Torygg to a "Ancient Nord Duel" and Tullius thought it was considered murder(As he had NO IDEA that it was a duel).

He knew, but he acted like he doesn't understand the concept of it, so he can use it as an excuse to take over the whole Skyrim.

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:31 pm

So many screenshots that support your position while you seem to conveniently ignore there's generally just as many people - natives, no less - saying similar things about the Stormcloaks. I guess good job, though, you found a shopkeeper that didn't care for the King, who's married to a man who doesn't have a strong opinion about who's on the throne, just that he'll serve it blindly.

Pack up the thread, we're all rubes for ever doubting the reign of High King Tantrum - er, Ulfric. What man amongst us can stand against such damning and watertight evidence.

Just about everyone you talk to in the game says Torygg was about as good a High King as Elisif would be High Queen.

Which is to say, just an Imperial mouth piece painted in Nord genetics.

» Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:43 am

Just about everyone you talk to in the game says Torygg was about as good a High King as Elisif would be High Queen.

Which is to say, just an Imperial mouth piece painted in Nord genetics.

And that a few of them say Torygg wasn't even that great. He was okay, but very much a puppet High King.

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:01 pm

Just about everyone you talk to in the game says Torygg was about as good a High King as Elisif would be High Queen.

Which is to say, just an Imperial mouth piece painted in Nord genetics.

Indeed. You cannot possibly imagine how much better off Skyrim would be if it hadn't had the burden of centuries of convenient trade routes, continent-wide allegiances, and imports from any location sea to sea. The tyranny of the Empire is disgusting.

I can certainly see how hundreds of people will want to ally with Ulfric's Skyrim after he's shown what a level-headed, even-tempered, and long-sighted individual he can be.

» Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:06 am

Indeed. You cannot possibly imagine how much better off Skyrim would be if it hadn't had the burden of centuries of convenient trade routes, continent-wide allegiances, and imports from any location sea to sea. The tyranny of the Empire is disgusting.

I can certainly see how hundreds of people will want to ally with Ulfric's Skyrim after he's shown what a level-headed, even-tempered, and long-sighted individual he can be.

I wouldn't want to be with an Empire that just abandons its people left (Hammerfell) and right (Morrowind), either.

Note that Solitude has no Dunmer but Ulfric Stormcloak keeps them safe and warm in his city that allegedly hates them. It's fantastic.

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:53 pm

I wouldn't want to be with an Empire that just abandons its people left (Hammerfell) and right (Morrowind), either.

But when they try to hold onto one of their client states instead, they're still evil.

The amount of argumentative fallacies that these threads provide is staggering.

Note that Solitude has no Dunmer but Ulfric Stormcloak keeps them safe and warm in his city that allegedly hates them. It's fantastic.

Oh yes, certainly! I'm sure the woman who was told her home was going to be broken into and made to talk due to suspicion of spying, by the brother of Ulfric's second in command is feeling very warm and safe right about now.

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:18 pm

Just about everyone you talk to in the game says Torygg was about as good a High King as Elisif would be High Queen.

Which is to say, just an Imperial mouth piece painted in Nord genetics.

This is the reason I really don't understand some Nords. Everyone knows High King was defeated in Nordic duel. If you dig up on the quest with Elisif in Solitude, you will eventually find out that if he refused the challenge, there would be a new council for a new High King. So he accepted the duel.
Ulfric defeated him, and now he is a murderer. He used Thu'um, but anyone can learn Thu'um if they study it for years, and since Ulfric isn't Dovahkiin, he surely took his time to master it.
So basicly, all the Nords who support the Empire should pack their bags and get out of Skyrim and lick boots to Imperials. I kinda see them here as they're being hypocritical and twofaced. "We want the best for Skyrim, we are proud Nords, but we will forsake and turn a blind eye to our traditions, let the Elves to take our Talos worshipping, and we will blindly follow a nearly bold man who is not even a Nord, just because he thought Ancient Nord Duel was a murder, even tho we know he just wanted an excuse to take Skyrim under his control" - It is just dumb, and I really doubt Nords would accept this if it was real life. I just think this was a best scenario for Bethesda to make two sides; Imperials and Stormcloaks.

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:34 am

But when they try to hold onto one of their client states instead, they're still evil.

The amount of argumentative fallacies that these threads provide is staggering.

Trying to hold onto their "client state" isn't wrong, but executing people left and right is. Giving up Nords to the Thalmor for worshiping Talos absolutely is. They could just imprison the Nords themselves and at least make sure the Elves couldn't mess with them. Instead, they opt to deliver the Nords - one at a time - to Aldmeri hands.

» Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:06 pm

He knew, but he acted like he doesn't understand the concept of it, so he can use it as an excuse to take over the whole Skyrim.

Actually, it is hard to say if Tullius know it was a duel or not. He was, after all, sent to Skyrim after the Rebellion broke out for real, which is with the death of Torygg. We do not know if he has been informed about there being a duel or not, unless there is unused dialogue that confirms that he knows it.
It is entirely possible that Tullius was simply given the typical "murderer, usurper, traitor" information about him and sent to take care of him.