Well, the lockpick perks are worthless. : V - Skyrim

» Wed May 16, 2012 1:06 am

They combined all of the effects of Oblivion and Fallout lockpicking and created a monstrosity that eats lockpicks like a fat guy eats potato chips. If you so much as touch the lock swivel with the pick out of place it's bye bye lockpick.

Looks down at bag of chips...

Anyways if it pans out to be true for me or the majority of players even that is good news.

» Wed May 16, 2012 3:20 am

I'm crap at lockpicking.

» Wed May 16, 2012 2:15 am

It's much, much harder this time round. Even if you have a lockpick that doesn't break it could still take you ages to pick higher locks without high skill/perks as the sweet spot will be tiny.

» Wed May 16, 2012 2:44 am

no you don't, its very easy to get used to the little minigame and the you should only use up about 5 lockpicks for a master lock with no skills, then you get the skeleton key.. and well you can never fail again

This is from the guy who posted the images I saw confirming the Skeleton Key. He didn't seem to think the game was very hard.

» Tue May 15, 2012 9:13 pm

Why would it be based on random chance though, in the mini game it is rumble sensitive. Not sure how it will pan out for mouse keyboard, sound maybe? One you get used to the cues, it should be easy even if the window of opportunity is small.

Awww I disabled the rumble on my controller because it annoys me.

» Wed May 16, 2012 12:27 am

no you don't, its very easy to get used to the little minigame and the you should only use up about 5 lockpicks for a master lock with no skills, then you get the skeleton key.. and well you can never fail again

This is from the guy who posted the images I saw confirming the Skeleton Key. He didn't seem to think the game was very hard.

Does he have high lockpick?

» Wed May 16, 2012 5:48 am

no you don't, its very easy to get used to the little minigame and the you should only use up about 5 lockpicks for a master lock with no skills, then you get the skeleton key.. and well you can never fail again

This is from the guy who posted the images I saw confirming the Skeleton Key. He didn't seem to think the game was very hard.

Woo-hoo mixed reports. Well I will say it will have worked(though it could have been better) if the majority of players have enough difficulty in the mini-game that they feel they need to take the perks. Whether I or other people are good enough at it that we don't is not totally relevant. Don;t get me wrong I think the best situation is where the value of a skill has almost no relation to the players skill, but that is the RPG stat nerd in me talking.

» Tue May 15, 2012 4:50 pm

That's not any kind of argument. I could also just choose to not use any weapons or armor, but that would also be artificially weakening myself for no reason. I could also choose to intentionally fail the minigame repeatedly just to waste more lockpicks. The fact is that the Skeleton Key is in the game and the lockpicking minigame is insanely easy. This sort of makes taking perks in the lockpicking tree less useful than taking perks somewhere else.

That is an argument, the fact is so are other super over powered items in the game, like swords and armor...and you can choose not to use those items as well an instad use th regular swords and armor....now don't you look foolish

» Tue May 15, 2012 8:57 pm

No, but this is bull crap just like it was in Oblivion. The existence of the Skeleton Key makes lockpicking a worthless skill to major in Oblivion and a worthless skill to spend perks on in Skyrim. That's really not fair to the skill.

Christ man, relax, just don't get the skeleton key then, there's no need to make such a big deal out of it. I know the skeleton key can ruin lockpicking, so unless I find lockpicking extrememly difficult, I just wont bother getting the skeleton key. Problem solved.

» Tue May 15, 2012 10:17 pm

I really don't know how to explain this better: intentionally limiting yourself is not game balance. Saying "just don't use it" is not an argument against the Skeleton Key being unbalanced. If it's in the game, it must be considered, and it being in the game is unfair to lockpicking because it makes it so much less important.

I'm not unreasonable for wanting everything in the game to be useful. Now, there have been valid arguments from some people in this topic for why lockpicking perks are still worth taking. Things like "the mini game will be harder" or "the other perks in the tree are good" are actual arguments and have changed my views. Saying "just don't use it" is, again, not actually an argument against my point.

» Tue May 15, 2012 6:32 pm

-looks at perks- Does the skeleton key automatically allow you to attempt to unlock "Master locks" and whatnot? I wouldn't think so.... and if not, then its not nearly so unbalanced an item.

» Wed May 16, 2012 12:30 am

-looks at perks- Does the skeleton key automatically allow you to attempt to unlock "Master locks" and whatnot? I wouldn't think so.... and if not, then its not nearly so unbalanced an item.

Now this is a valid argument. Essentially the Skeleton Key just gives you the effect of having infinite lockpicks. Rather than breaking several to fiddle around and find the sweet spot for the lock, you just don't break anything. Depending on whether lockpicks are already readily available, the Skeleton Key may end up not really mattering.

» Tue May 15, 2012 6:05 pm

Now this is a valid argument. Essentially the Skeleton Key just gives you the effect of having infinite lockpicks. Rather than breaking several to fiddle around and find the sweet spot for the lock, you just don't break anything. Depending on whether lockpicks are already readily available, the Skeleton Key may end up not really mattering.

Yep, that's the way i'm hoping it'll be. It was broken in oblivion because you could try out any lock. So long as it is like fallout where you'll get an error upon trying, then the key will be less imbalanced.

» Tue May 15, 2012 3:01 pm

-looks at perks- Does the skeleton key automatically allow you to attempt to unlock "Master locks" and whatnot? I wouldn't think so.... and if not, then its not nearly so unbalanced an item.

You don't need certain skill levels or perks to attempt locks if that's what you mean.

» Wed May 16, 2012 1:57 am

Yep, that's the way i'm hoping it'll be. It was broken in oblivion because you could try out any lock. So long as it is like fallout where you'll get an error upon trying, then the key will be less imbalanced.

Oh, I thought you were talking about how you can't force locks and you still have to attempt the game. No, you can always attempt master locks at any skill level.

» Tue May 15, 2012 2:40 pm

Skeleton key in oblivion + Thieves den auto-lock chest = locking to 100 instantly....

Which was abit lame tbh, but in skyrim maybe they'll make it so you have to be endgame level to do the quest/shrine to get the pick which will then make lockpick viable untill end game.

» Tue May 15, 2012 3:54 pm

This is a lot of complaining about something available with a Lockpicking perk.

» Wed May 16, 2012 4:02 am

Also, are Open Lock spells even in this game? That would make lockpicking even more useless.

» Tue May 15, 2012 5:26 pm

This is a lot of complaining about something available with a Lockpicking perk.

That requires 6 perks and 100 lockpick skill. The alternative gives the same effect for just doing a quest.

» Wed May 16, 2012 4:35 am

I think the point (being missed here apparently) is not that you can willingly choose to not use the skeleton key. The point is that the skill should be useful with or without the item in the game. The point is that an item you can find making the skill perks pointless is a waste of either the potential usefullness of an entire skill or a waste of a potential daedric artifact. That is to say, if they can effectively replace one another, then that's a chance to put in a better artifact or a more useful skill they missed out on. A far better choice would've been to make the key impact aspects of that minigame, making it easier to do. Then the artifact would've complimented the skill perks, not replaced them.

As for the semi-useful perks, I don't see any that are worth wasting perk points in. Unseen picking locks? Really? If you are a rogue, then like any stealth based character, you surely have some competence in sneak skill. I was able to pick locks on chests and drawers with the shop owner in the same room and people going by on the street in Oblivion and it didn't have that perk. All you had to do was wait for that moment when, you know, nobody was looking. Why would someone waste a valuable perk point for something any competent stealth player should already be capable of doing? To get the wax key one? If it becomes simple to pick locks, why make a copy? Just pick it again, it's easy enough. There's really only one perk in the tree that may or may not be of use, the special treasures one. And whether that is worth a point (or rather 5, 4 useless ones and it) depends on if these "special treasures" are things you cannot get without that perk or if all it does is give you a better chance at getting what you would eventually anyway.

But even if one perk on the end of a branch in the whole tree winds up being useful, that in no way invalidates the fact that the key's existence in game effectively made the rest of the tree a waste of space and design time. I am all about the greater options and more choices way of making games that this company is so awesome for doing, but that doesn't mean that opportunities for greater choice are not passed over. What would it take for everyone to understand and see this simple point? Maybe confirmation that they had a sword that gave you most of the highest perks in one-handed? A cloak that gave you the vanish sneak perk and 15x dagger damage? How about an item that duplicated the perks for every one of the eighteen skills? At what point would it start to be obvious how hollow the "you can just not use it" argument really is? Worthless, maybe not. Pointless, waste, absolutely.

» Wed May 16, 2012 3:27 am

Extra treasure and gold is hardly useless.

this.

» Wed May 16, 2012 4:11 am

Oh that's cool. I'm not arguing against speech perks in the lockpicks thread. More power too you. I am just stating that gold from shops is totally unlimited.

Definitely portrays the mood of this forum as of late rather disgustingly well.

Anyways I doubt its game breaking. Not accusing anyone of thinking it is but it isn't -that- big of an issue.

» Tue May 15, 2012 5:41 pm

Definitely portrays the mood of this forum as of late rather disgustingly well.

Anyways I doubt its game breaking. Not accusing anyone of thinking it is but it isn't -that- big of an issue.

Don't know what you are trying to say when you quote me. Also I (and probably other readers) have no idea what you are referring too. Your avatar fits.

Wasted post?

Back to the topic. I agree with Nightshade's most recent giant-elegant-post. But I think the back in forth will just continue (partially due to the fact that people are not reading the thread and just posting impulsively), so we will get nowhere.

» Tue May 15, 2012 7:33 pm

Yep, that's the way i'm hoping it'll be. It was broken in oblivion because you could try out any lock. So long as it is like fallout where you'll get an error upon trying, then the key will be less imbalanced.

There is a big difference between the skill and the perk tree. This thread is talking about perks and not the skill. If I master the skill and take no perks, can I open any lock in the game? If I then have the skelton key I am now able to pick any lock and I have a pick that never breaks. So how are the perks valuable enough to warrant choosing?

IMHO the question comes to this: are there locks that require perks to unlock? If not, then the perk tree is of minmal value.

» Wed May 16, 2012 12:48 am

I posted this in the nexus forum. Some points are fairly similar 'Nightshade Assassin' reasoning. And it was posted based on perk usefulness alone, without the knowledge of the skeleton key.

Spoiler

I'm doing a thief character also and am also have difficulty justifying taking perks in the lockpicking tree. On paper they don't seem all that necessary and am also hoping that skill level alone still has an impact on how easy it is to accomplish. Like you said there are a few in there that are tempting to take.

If skill level alone has no impact on your ability to pick locks, I'm probably going to at least take the - Novice - Apprentice - Quickhands - Perks

If not, I'll probably take none.

My opinion of the perks:

Quick Hands(40)(2 prerequisite Perks) Undetectable picking. I could see this one become pretty useful. Assuming there are places to break into that are never without people around it. Like trying to pick into certain places in Oblivion where there were patrolling or stationary guards around all the time. Would need to see it's affect in game, and whether sneak skill and perks could negate the use of this all together.

-Wax Key-(50)(3 prerequisite Perks) Don't see this as being worth it, maybe if your picking the same lock many times over, but even then picking the lock again shouldn't be that big of a deal

-Golden Touch-(60)(3 prerequisite Perks) Would be nice, but probably only beneficial earlier on when are characters are poor, and since it takes skill of 60 to unlock, maybe too late to be useful. Useful perhaps only to unlock the next perk:

Treasure Hunter(70)(4 Prerequisite Perks) Sounds nice on paper, depends how much of a difference you actually notice in game. And how rare it is by default to come across 'special' loot. If it's a 1% in game then an increase of 50% would be a total of 1.5% chance which is still garbage. If it's a 20% by default then it becomes 30%. Better but still not all that amazing. Might be one I try saving in a dungeon, then giving perk and seeing what difference it makes.

Locksmith(80)(4 prerequisite Perks) Useful but probably only means saving a bit of time in the mini game, if it is like fallout 3+ it's probably not all that necessary and not worth the use of a perk.

Unbreakable(100)(5 prerequisite Perks) Sounds good on paper, deciding factors would be how abundant or picks, and would having this perk mean you could just choose 'force lock'(or equivalent) over and over again till it opened, completely bypass the mini game. If yes, then this could be handy as the mini game may get annoying after a while. However the mini game in fallout 3+ was pretty quick and easy, so wasn't a big deal. Not like the hacking mini game which become annoying to do after a while. But dumping 6 perks in just to only unlock this makes it less worthwhile.

-Novice-Apprentice-Adept-Expert-Master- In oblivion these were unlocked as you progressed your skill. So if skill alone has very little impact on our ability to pick a lock, which sounds stupid to me. Meaning these perks may be necessary in order to get into master locks, then adding an extra perk here and there to unlock the other ones is less of a big deal. However if you can get into any lock with only a high skill level and no perks at all. Then I can't see any of these being worth picking. I'd rather spend the perks in other skill trees.

As for the skeleton key breaking the benefit of the perks? Yes, it would seem so for the unbreakable one. As once obtained it replicates that perk, and thus makes picking any lock being just a matter of patience and time. However some variable that could counter act this are the following:

How easy is this item to obtain?
How early on would you find this item?

If it is not something that most people will come across, then I don't see it as being that big of a deal. I mean if you have to go through a lot of work to obtain this item then the benefit of the item could seem worthwhile. If you would only find it by chance or if you've already found out how to get it by looking online. Then it's your own fault for spoiling your game[EDIT] Not really your fault if you accidentally come across it mind you[/EDIT]. However if it's an item that is part of a guild quest line that most people will encounter than yes it could be seen as a perk killer. Depending on how early on you would obtain it. If you would not get it till your likely to get to a 100 skill and have access to the unbreakable perk, and have made use of the perks prior to obtaining the skeleton key.

However the OP mentions that money is essentially unlimited. If lock picks are also unlimited(meaning you can purchase as many as you want by resting and buying from one merchant for example). Then lock picking in general breaks the perk tree also not just the skeleton key. As having unlimited picks would be no different than a skeleton key or the unbreakable perk. But the argument on where the lock picking perks are worthless seems to depend on how you like to play the game. If you typically exploit things, like saving and reloading, or getting unlimited money by sleeping and selling, or unlimited picks, then yes.

I would argue that perks should be just that. Perks. Not necessities. I'm hoping achieving 100 in a skill will make you fairly proficient in that skill without any perks. That goes for any skill. Perks should just add other things that you aren't able to do with skill alone. Which some of the lock picking perks do do. But most do seem to be pretty worthless on paper in my opinion. If they make lock picking generally easier for those that don't want to have to exploit certain aspects of the game then the perks do become more useful. But I too am going to find it hard to justify picking them over other perks in other skills.