And that's your opinion,which is just as valid as mine, we're just looking for / hoping for different things is all. I don't want an out right rip off of " Underworld " just something along the same lines, a conflict between Vamps and werewolves. Even if it turns out that the " Dawnguard " are just human vamp hunters, I'll be happy cutting the heads off of every vamp I come across, but if werewolves are involved then I get to eat them We're just gonna have to wait and see.

Whie you're right there isn't any bad blood between them now, well "history" is still being written and we won't know till it happens. Perhaps some of these "Dawngaurds" like the Companions are secretly Werewolves so that would have Werewolves vs Vampires. But i digress, you bring up a point in that putting them together because of popular fiction isn't the right way to do it. As for the movie series "Underworld" it's not the first time Werewolves and Vampires have fought if you look back through movie history there have been other (lesser known) Vampire v Werewolf movies. Normally 1 vampire vs 1 werewolf.


More likely than not the Dawngaurd are just vampire hunters perhaps their cause goes deeper than just being Vampire Hunters, perhaps their history will be unraveled to us, but as I said previously, perhaps a select few Dawngaurds are secretly Werewolves hmm? But hey if they are or aren't, if your a Werewolf just have fun Wolfing out and taking on some serious Vampires. Again hopefully the Lycanthropy perk tree will come out before if not be apart of the Dawngaurd Expansion. Here's hoping

Fingers crossed

Hopefully the Dawnguard are werebears! and it isn't a lycanthropy tree, it's a transformation tree!

I'm hoping for a mix of what you said, the lower skill perks are for improving damage resistance, dealing more damage, longer transformations, etc...etc... but once you get to the higher parts of the tree you start to get werebear,great wolf options, kinda like a werewolf lord( great wolf ). If I'm not mistaken there was a mod for Oblivion that did exactly this.... different Lv's of werewolves, all distinguished by differences in colour, size, strength.

Oh mah gawd Loving the varmpire lord cant wait hope I get in the beta fingures crossed

Huleed is correct. Vampires and Werebeast have no more animosity towards each other than they do any other violent creatures. Vampires are more prone to fight amongst their own than anyone else. Creating a conflict out of nothing and ignoring established history is not improving lore, it's ignoring it. And it does seem to be a rip off from Underworld. Just like Vampire Lords, which are a RETCON in their own right.

You guys really have NO idea how predators act do you? When two dominate predators inhabit the same area there's always gonna be a fight, be it for territory, or for food, they don't go out looking for a fight( unless looking to over take the others territory ). Lions for example will not go out of their way to kill a cheetah, unless said cheetah has encroached on their territory and has started to hunt. Grizzly bears will not kill a black bear just on a whim, the black bear has to encroach on the grizzlies territory.

So why is it sooOOOoo difficult for some to think that " Dawnguard " is gonna be a turf war between Vamps & werewolves? I'm not saying that it's gonna be a total rip off of " Underworld " no where in my post did I say that, what I am saying is perhaps it's a Beth. version of a " Underworld " type story. Perhaps . And as far as the lore goes, Beth wrote the lore, they can change it or add to it as they deem fit, if they feel it's time for wolves and vamps to go toe to toe then it's fully with in their rights to add to the lore. Change is not a bad thing as long as it's done right. I agree that " Underworld " wasn't the best movie out there but the premiss behind the movie was solid, and as far as I'm concerned it was a nice spin added to the Vamp & werewolf lore.

As long as there's enough resources, and they aren't too close together, predators who don't eat one another don't tend to fight that much. It's not a case of an instant throw down the second one enters the territory of another, and many different species of predators inhabit the same area with little to no conflict with each other at all.

From where I'm standing, it's kind of foolish for one group to want to completely slaughter the other. Sure they're a bit of competition for resources, but they're also competitors for the prey's resources as well. If I'm a vampire, I'd be okay with letting a werewolf or two kill a villager every month or so, because then the villagers are focused on the werewolf problem, not me.

Yeah but know the werewolves are taking from the resources. The part that is high lighted is only half right, the dominate predator will not kill lesser predators unless provoked. But the minute another dominate predator encroaches on the firsts territory it's war, a wolf pack will let other lesser predators like badgers, birds of prey, foxes, wild cats( lynx ) hunt with in their territory, but the second another wolf or wolf pack enters, it's war and then they will fight until one or the other is killed. Same way with lions, cheetah's can hunt with in a lions territory as long as they don't bump into each other, but when they come into contact there is a competition for food and territory which leads to fights.
Which is where I'm going with the " Underworld " twist to " Dawnguard ", it's a territory war between werewolves and vamps. I'm not saying that I'm right, I may very well be wrong, but it makes sense for the two to be at odds, seeing how they are both dominate predators and they both inhabit the same area.

Part of the problem is that animals operate on instinct, while werewolves and vampires have logic and rationale at their disposal, and while a werewolf (or even a community of werewolves) would deplete the vampires' food supply, it might be worth coexistence or using cloak and dagger tactics to wipe them out rather than engaging them directly.

Come on everyone lets not argue I'm sure IF there is Werewolves vs Vampires then bethesda will make it fit and make it work without it feeling forced.

Guys, I think you have it all wrong, if the Dawnguard are werewolves, which I could see happening, the reason they are fighting the vampires is because they do not want the vampires to use the Elder Scroll for their purposes, and I bet the Dawnguard want to use it to benefit themselves. This way both sides are neither good or bad, for example if the Dawnguard are werewolves they may want to use the Elder Scroll to do something to the moons so they are stronger all the time. I don't know that is the vibe I get.

Good point, I was just throwing an idea out there, then some jumped down my throat due to me using " Underworld " as an example. Another I could have used would have been " Dracula vs The wolfman " but I have my doubts that many are familiar with that flick so I used the most up to date example.

I get what your saying but I can see vamps using cloak and dagger tactics more so the werewolves, werewolves do in fact act on instinct and I can see them engaging in out right open combat, but once again it's just my theory.

See I'm open to ideas that add to my theory, but to out right dismiss my theory because some are stuck on the fact that the " lore " cannot be rewritten is just foolish. Like I said.... I don't want an out right rip off of " Underworld " it wasn't that great of a movie but the idea behind the movie really speaks to me and when you think about it a conflict between the two fits with the stories of Vamps and werewolves. And as far as the " lore " goes, Beth. wrote it so they can add/change it as they see fit, I just get a vampire vs werewolf feel from the way " Dawnguard " looks and then you add what Vsions posted in my topic which just furthers my " Theory " but as of right now that's all it is, a " theory ". I'm not arguing, just defending my " theory " from those close minded people that out right dismiss it.

You know that is very possible. Or again, perhaps a "secret group" like the Companions "Circle" are Werewolves. However the Dawngaurd may just be the "good" side as some people DO like being the evil character while some like being Heroic.... and if this is so there will more than likely be a middle ground perhaps using it for yourself. But again I can only speculate. At this point we know very little to nothing about the story line all we know is it's Vampire related. BUT AGAIN If your right then THAT could be how the Lycanthropic or possibly a Vampiric perk tree comes from choosing either of the sides which allows you to further evolve your character with use of the perk tree. It's a possibility.


Dracula vs the Wolman is a good movie, and possibly a better reference to how things could play out in Dawgaurd. since Underworld while enjoyable can be a bit over the top and dramatic. That and I'm getting sick and tired of Kate Beckinsale's character Seline.

I do however agree with you and REL neither of them are simply "wild beasts" although I'd say the Werewolves are close enough. Vampire seem to be more magic preferred and stealthy (only going by Skyrim and other videos) while obviously Werewolves are powerful hand to claw combatnants who use their sheer size, strength and speed to their adventage.

:-) IF this somehow becomes Werewolves vs Vampires in any shape or form I think it would be a brilliant thing to see.

The cloak and dagger comment was meant to apply to the vampires and not werewolves. I think vampires would be smart enough to let the local food supply deal with the werewolves rather than make it their own problem. It distracts the food and lets the vampires go about their business easier.

Some werewolves (like Sidning) have been shown to have some degree of their humanity and rationale even when transformed though.

Also, I imagine a werewolf's territory covers a lot more ground than a vampire's (at least one that isn't blended into society and powerful) due to the fact that werewolves seem to be so much faster than their undead counterparts.

For the record, I'm not opposed to the Werewolf v Vampire idea as an idea, but it's not one I'll be knocking down walls to play either. I have seen Dracula vs The Wolfman though.

I just think it's a good spin on the vampire, werewolf lore, BUT I'm basing this on actual RL lore on the two, not TES lore. I really don't know all that much about vampires in TES, and the werewolves seem to be close to what they are in RL lore, I just think it's the fact that " Underworld " and " Twilight " both circled around this which killed the goodness of it by over doing it and being sappy.
Lore is rewritten all the time, for better or worse, but it is rewritten, how many of you actually know what a " True " werewolf is supposed to look like? I do, they are nothing like the werewolves of today, in fact " Twilight " depicted werewolves as they should be depicted, looking just like actual wolves not the monster we all know today. And the only way to tell if said wolf is a werewolf is that a werewolf has no tail, just like a witch turning into an animal of he choosing, but I prefer the werewolf of today's lore it fits the bill IMO.

Everyone here is free to speculate on their theories and opinions, I'm not saying that you aren't or that they don't have value but the simple fact is that the fantasy, the notion that Werewolves and Vampires hate each other does not exist in The Elder Scrolls universe. There are several reasons why. Yes, Bethesda could change the lore into whatever they want but they shouldn't. They should have integrity and pride in their work and build from its foundation. Games like TES can be paralled to ongoing book series and the lore is part of that. Changing established info for any reason never sits well with the fan base (e.g., Me and Vampire Lords). You may not care about lore and story but there are many and more who do, which George Lucas and Bioware could attest to, to their regret.

There are many floating around the forums that would beg to differ, there are a couple other threads over in gen. discussion, It's not that bad of an idea. Think about a werebear going toe to toe with a vamp. lord, I'm not saying that it will revolve around werewolves and vamps alone, but rather that the Dawnguard are perhaps a mix of both human vamp hunters and werewolves. I think the problem is that the minute the subject is brought up the first thing that pops into peoples heads is " Twilight " and " Underworld " which are horrible movies but the back story to " Underworld " is a very interesting one. We will just have to wait and see.

Like I mentioned in one of the threads in the Skyrim General board, making the Dawnguard a mix of humans and werewolves would introduce a very big problem for the Dawnguard, given the bestial and volatile nature of werebeasts. The only way it could work is if the werewolves are few and secretive such that their lycanthropy becomes incidental, or the entire group is one large pack of werewolves which brings in the overdone trope and shoehorned story elements that don't fit TES.

I think the problem is that many werewolf and vampire fans are just sick of the two constantly being thrown together in some sort of "Epic Fight For Supremacy". Just because you have one doesn't mean the other has to be there to fight them. There are plenty of other interesting things you can do with vampires and werewolves that don't involve them fighting each other as a central plot point.

And yes you are right there, but once again, mixing two dominate predators together is like mixing oil and water, it just doesn't work well together. I'm not saying that you guys are out right wrong, chances are I just might be wrong, but I'm not out right dismissing your ideas based on the fact that " I don't think the lore should/will change ". Personally I think a lot of people need to pull their heads out of the sand and realize that Beth. wrote the lore so they can change it or add to it as they see fit. And it's very obvious ( to me ) that this is exactly that, beth taking a new direction, my proof, the fact that both Dawnguard and this new strain of vampire have never been heard of until now.

The Companions are human (most of the time), and use their beast form when out doing certain types of mercenary work (or whenever they feel like going out on a hunt). They are also capable warriors in their own right. Mercenary work is better suited to being a werewolf since you'll often be working alone in various remote places. That's very different from the Dawnguard, where it appears you're working with a group in a specific fortified area.

The Companions also had a deal with the Glenmoril Witches to have more control over their form, while promising to serve Hircine in life and in death.

I have no problem with the lore being altered if it's A) a plausible change, and B) makes the world more interesting. Vampires vs Werewolves isn't interesting, nor would be the lore changes to make it happen. The plausibility of such a change would also be in doubt, given what we know about vampires and werewolves.

Though that's only an issue when they're in the same area with the same food source. So far from what we've seen, this doesn't seem to be the case. Consider also that werewolves, in addition to being rare and thus not likely to impede on the same area as vampires, are in human form most of the time and only need to kill people once or twice a month.

I'm not dismissing the ideas based on the reasoning "I don't think the lore should/will change". I'm arguing against the idea because I'm tired of werewolves and vampires pitted against each other "because it's cool", and by extension wouldn't like any lore changes made to try to justify it. It's an overdone trope that I'd much rather see fade into obscurity than to catch on in yet another piece of werewolf- and vampire-related media.

Ok well, once again, we gotta agree to disagree If it turns out that my theory is wrong I will gladly eat my crow

Don't eat a crow.... but hey even if there are no Werewolves in Dawngaurd by default. Doesn't mean the Dovakin can't MAKE Werewolf vs Vampires right?....

ONe thing I'm curious about, what if your character IS Vampire but wants to work along side the Dawngaurd..... hmmm