Each performs the same function.

Most of the time I side with the Imperials because I play as different races. If I'm a Nord I side with the Stormcloaks.

In terms of gameplay maybe.
I don't think you'd point anyone to sell junk at a market stall cart.

I dislike how the stormcloaks view war, They think its a game to gain honour!, There is no Honour in war, Only death and survivial!
The imperial will lie, Cheat, And do whatever it takes to win, Which Is a reason why I fight for them.

I sure as hell wouldn't suggest they head into the dangerous "ghetto" when there's someone willing to buy their stuff right next to me.

Probably a archaic barbarian culture thing?
Tsun was perfectly happy to see the listener of the dark brotherhood demand entry into sovngarde


That's just you then
Rolff Stone-Fist seems perfectly safe and happy to stroll in the "ghetto" at night to insult people.

But some would argue that the old empire is worth saluaging? The Alessian Empire proved that with effective enough management you can run an empire for 2000 years even if you antagonize half the continent (and lose repeatedly). The Reman Empire proved that even at the seeming verge of collapse, an empire can be restored.


As for this whole racist thing, many Stormcloaks aren't racist. Some are. From what evidence we have, Ulfric is one of those that is. Altmer in Windhelm aside (Not just the thief fence in the market, but also Nurelion and the couple that owns the stables outside the city), the Dunmer say that life for them has gotten worse since Ulfric became Jarl and that he won't let them live anywhere else in the city outside the Grey Quarter. He has the resources to help local Nords, but not others. And of course he won't even let the Argonians in the city, which is as far as I know a trend that is not in any other city (for Argonians at least).

And that was sanctioned by the Empire.



Problem is this isn't even the old Empire. Its a new and most importantly illegitimate Empire that has thus far proven itself incapable serving the best interests of its people. Sure you can run an Empire for 2000 years and piss off half the continent but that doesn't mean that Empire was right. Just that it was able to hold onto its station. The important thing is that the Empire is acting in the best interests of those it lords over, and right now, its far from doing so. As such, it must end.

As for this whole racist thing, many Stormcloaks aren't racist. Some are. From what evidence we have, Ulfric is one of those that is. Altmer in Windhelm aside (Not just the thief fence in the market, but also Nurelion and the couple that owns the stables outside the city), the Dunmer say that life for them has gotten worse since Ulfric became Jarl and that he won't let them live anywhere else in the city outside the Grey Quarter. He has the resources to help local Nords, but not others. And of course he won't even let the Argonians in the city, which is as far as I know a trend that is not in any other city (for Argonians at least).

The Nords have every reason to put down the Dunmer, as well as any other Mer. Afterall, it was Mer that started the bad blood between the two. Nords have no reason to even allow Dunmer live in the cities, as most Dunmer would not have let any Nord refugees live in their own cities if the roles were reversed. The beast folk have always been looked down upon by the more aggressive races. That includes the Dunmer and the Altmer. And the Nords especially have every reason not to welcome them with open arms as both of the beast races home provinces are no longer a part of the Empire. The Khajiit have thus far aligned themselves with the Thalmor (making them automatically untrustworthy period. Race doesn't even matter at this point) and the Argonians have already proven their willing to invade other provinces, no matter how justified they may have been in invading Morrowind.

I dislike how the stormcloaks view war, They think its a game to gain honour!, There is no Honour in war, Only death and survivial!

You sir are unworthy of wearing the image of Beowulf then. Though then again that particular rendition of him does suit you.

First of all, It'd be one thing if he learned the voice from some auxillary source (( Word walls or something of that nature.)) But he said that he directly learned the voice from the greybeards and then vastly abused it. Its less about him abusing the voice, (( Which is a form of magic, No problems there.)) But rather how he abused an ancient order of pacifists for his own PERSONAL gain. Not to mention that an earnest word never comes out of ulfrics mouth, After toppling solitude uflric gives a long and fruity speech about independence and says two things that prove my point, First of all he says that he won't claim the title of high king untill the moot convenes to crown him as such, (( Despite the fact that since he's got stormcloaks garrisoned in most major cities the Jarls have little choice.)) That and he allows jarl elisif to live and retain her rank if she swears fealty to him, Now at first i thought, Oh, Yeah that works ulfric isn't such a bad guy, But i believe its either ulfric himself or galmar stone-fist who says something about how its useful for ulfric politically because it makes him look merciful to torrygs widow.

In contrast if you side with general tullius after you topple windhelm he appoints Brunwulf-Free winter to jarl, Brunwulf being noted for someone who generally cares about the plight of people and how the dark elves are confined to a slum. That and he makes a small point of doubling the pay of his soldiers and compensation to the widows of fallen imperial troops which is much more noble then the long-winded speceh that ulfric rattled off.


Not to mention that not even the imperials seem happy with the talos ban, But after the majority of the legion was slaughtered, would it really be so bad to give up the open worship of one of your MANY, MANY Gods simply to get enough time to prepare to strike back against the dominion? Several Imperial-aligned people have been shown to still revere talos, Not to mention Jarl Balgruuf has that crazy priest outside the statue of talos in whiterun, Despite the town being aligned to the empire do you ever see him reported to the justiciars? No.


And about the actual emperor... First of all both titus mede ll And the septims (( Tiber Septim excluded.)) were BORN into royalty, Same as titus mede the second i don't see how having a different family name makes your rise to power by way of a monarchy of a government any more or less legitimate. That and titus mede the second seems like a very reasonable and wise person, Just because he had a warlord for a father dosen't mean he isn't fit to be emperor.


In regards to the empire surrendering... I mean this isn't even needed, half of the legions forces suffered casulaties of some sort and the dominion had a sword to the empires throat, They didn't have time to organize their forces properly so they accepted the white gold concordat, Elewsyr and valenwood are both allied with the dominion in a sense, So it'd make sense for them to rally their forces and THEN Hit the dominion where it hurts. But with ulfric starting a rebellion... They had to send forces to skyrim to combat the more immediate threat of skyrim falling out of imperial control.

So in conclusion, For the empire!

You guys have to understand that BOTH of them have their claim.

My advice? If you're a Nord, go Stormcloak.

If you're anything else, go Empire because Ulfric is fairly racist. You can figure this out by talking to the people that live in his city.

I don't know about you guys, but this seems like a comparison between NCR and Caesar in New Vegas. The stormcloaks are supporting the ideals of Ulfric, and are generally trying to fight to gain control, while the empire seems to be a bit more diplomatic. Just like the NCR and Legion, they're both evil, you just have to pick what you think is the lesser evil.

I think that Ulfric and his regime is going to involve a lot of chaos, and the Empire is going to restore more order, but that's just my opinion.

Although, the Empire doesn't give Ulfric enough credit. He challenged and killed the High King, and the High King's wife made up a story saying that Ulfric simply murdered him.

He abused nothing. If the Greybeards were the ones who came up with the voice, you might be able to argue this, but they weren't. Thu'um was gifted to man long before the Greybeards ever came about, and the only reason Jurgen Windcaller came up with the Way of the Voice was because he was arrogant (as are most Nords) and was greatly humbled when he and others were defeated at Red Mountain. He became a pacifist not because of some revelation about the voice, but just because he couldn't take the fact that he lost. So he came up with the Way of the Voice as a way of making up for it.

Long story short there is nothing inherently wrong with using the voice to your own end.

And this isn't even going into how Ulfric never even abused the voice in this way anyway. The voice was not integral to him defeating Torygg. Torygg was defeated by the sword, the voice was used against him only as a flourish. It would be no different then Ulfric standing Torygg up on his knees and cutting of his head in some heroic looking fashion. And further, it worked as a symbol that showed Ulfric as the greater Nord, and a worthier man for the station of High King.



Nordic men and women will defend their homes, family, and friends before they force them into something they'd rather not be a part of. And besides that, half of Skyrim already agrees with Ulfric, and with every hold taken a new Jarl that supports him is placed there. No "forcing" will be done.

However, that doesn't mean Ulfric is still going to be crowned High-King. It is still up to the Jarls and very few Stormcloak supporters will continue to support him if Ulfric tries to go to war again. Ulfric is at the mercy of the Jarls should he win, regardless of their support for him.



And? This doesn't really prove your point at all.




And?

ot to mention that not even the imperials seem happy with the talos ban, But after the majority of the legion was slaughtered, would it really be so bad to give up the open worship of one of your MANY, MANY Gods simply to get enough time to prepare to strike back against the dominion? Several Imperial-aligned people have been shown to still revere talos, Not to mention Jarl Balgruuf has that crazy priest outside the statue of talos in whiterun, Despite the town being aligned to the empire do you ever see him reported to the justiciars? No.

Yes actually it is extremely bad. Believing in a polytheistic religion myself, I can tell you that being forced not to openly worship any one of the gods or goddesses (and most particularly the most popular one(s)) is quite terrible, and quite frankly I'd fight against it. Not to bring in real-world politics, but its very akin to the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy. And I'll just let you figure out the significance of that.

And do you think anyone in Whiterun would actually report him? Do you ever see any Thalmor agents lurking around? No? Didn't think so.

And about the actual emperor... First of all both titus mede ll And the septims (( Tiber Septim excluded.)) were BORN into royalty, Same as titus mede the second i don't see how having a different family name makes your rise to power by way of a monarchy of a government any more or less legitimate.

The Mede Empire was created when its first Emperor stole the vacant Septim throne. Thats why it is illegitimate. He rose to power through force, and not even honourably as Tiber Septim did. Tiber Septim gained the right to be crowned emperor because he had conquered the continent. Mede did nothing, and being born into royalty (and not even a significant royalty mind you) doesn't mean anything.

That and titus mede the second seems like a very reasonable and wise person, Just because he had a warlord for a father dosen't mean he isn't fit to be emperor.

No but his continued support of the WGC says he isn't. That he actually accepted the WGC in the first place says he isn't.

In regards to the empire surrendering... I mean this isn't even needed, half of the legions forces suffered casulaties of some sort and the dominion had a sword to the empires throat,

Try reading a book sometime before you start spewing this false nonsense again. Yes, the Legion lost half of its capable fighting force, and the remaining half was only half as capable. But the Dominion was completely and utterly devastated. The only significant army it had left was sitting in Hammerfel, and as I'm sure you know it failed to do anything there. The Empire might not have been ready then to go on an offensive but no one is saying they would have had to. The remaining capable Legion would only be forced into a defensive mode for southern Cyrodiil (in case of an attack that was likely never, ever going to come) and as the war between Hammerfel and the Dominion showed us, there would have been PLENTY of time for the Legion to resupply itself to the point of being able to take on the rest of the Dominion, if only to force them into a peace, if not take over them entirely or mostly.

They didn't have time to organize their forces properly so they accepted the white gold concordat, Elewsyr and valenwood are both allied with the dominion in a sense

They had plenty of time. And Valenwood isn't allied with the Dominion at all, while the two Elseweyr kingdoms have shown that they have no desire to go to war even despite their allegiance. (as otherwise they would have showed up in Hammerfel sometime during the 5 years the Dominion spent fighting there)

But with ulfric starting a rebellion... They had to send forces to skyrim to combat the more immediate threat of skyrim falling out of imperial control.

Hope you realize that the Great War took place 25 years before the games events. The Legion has long since been rebuilt.

Before I give my responses I must first say I find the views of the different states of the Empire's interesting. Those that side with the Stormcloaks, thus dooming it, say it's doomed. Those that side with the Empire, thus saving it, say it an be saved. Even the back of the game case says the future of the empire hangs in the balance. Those who side with the Stormcloaks seem convinced that the Empire will never take action against the Thalmor. Those that side with the Empire say it may.

Illegitimate? Most of the time the Reman Empire stood, it was ruled by Tsaeci, who may or may not have orchestrated the death of the last Remans. Yet they ruled for 400 years brought back an empire from the brink of destruction. There is nothing left to determine what is or isn't "legitimate.

The way I see it, the Empire is flawed, but it's also a united force with a competent, organized military in a time when there's a greater threat looming over their heads. It seems almost every condemnation is in hindsight. People condemn the Medes for not aggressively destroying the Thalmor back when they were reconstructing their Dominion, despite the fact that nobody, not the Nords nor the Redguards saw the threat they would become to the Empire. They didn't have MK to inform them that the Thalmor wish to wipe out mankind, or that they were planning on attacking the Empire. When they let Hammerfell go, it was because Hammerfell would jeopardize peace for the rest of the Empire.

The Empire has proven time and again that occasionally, there will be a questionable ruler. Look at Potema, Pelagius, or Jagar Tharn. Skyrim never seceded because of any of them. Yes, Titus Mede let Hammerfell go and banned Talos while he did not realize that the Thalmor were as weakened as they were. But it's also frequently forgotten that it was his tactics that devastated the Dominion military, which would end up ensuring that the Redguards could break free on their own. Yes he allowed the banning of Talos, but it's only while peace lasts (which RIkke is convinced won't be much longer).

Personally, I feel the Empire is still able to be saved and is worth holding on to, or at least worth giving one last chance. If anything, it should be after the Thalmor are no longer a major threat (or they lose to the Dominion again) that people should start to consider replacing it.

The last conflict between the Dunmer and Nords was about 200 years ago. And neither that nor the war with the Altmer (whom the Dunmer don't particularly like either) doesn't justify treating them like second class citizens, not when the Empire has introduced the idea of racial equality long ago. Considering Dunmer are actually treated worse than Altmer in the city, it definitely didn't have anything to do with the Great War. As for the Argonians, I doubt the Nords' prejudice comes from the Argonian invasion, because it is irrelevant to Skyrim and considering the prejudice against Dunmer, I doubt they'd actually care about Morrowind getting invaded. Not with how they treat the Dunmer. The only racial discrimination that both the Imperials and Stormcloaks share is that of Khajiit which as you mentioned, is justified as they are a current threat because most in Skyrim are either smugglers, thieves, or Thalmor agents.

So what? We're not talking about the Reman Empire. We're talking about the Mede Empire



What? They were already a threat to the Empire when they invaded Cyrodiil and committed vast atrocities against its people. Peace is not going to be had by accepting some BS treaty that magically lets the Dominion win out against the Empire anyway and giving up lands that aren't so incredibly stupid and actually decide to continue the fight.

By accepting the WGC, the Mede's doomed their Empire, and by extension Tamriel.



Inaction against other rulers does not illegitimize action against the current one. Just because one people might not fight the tyrant thats lording over them, doesn't mean that when another people decide to fight their tyrant that they are in the wrong for doing so.

And yes, Mede II did destroy most of the Dominions army using the Legion (Which btw isn't something he had a part in creating so don't fool yourself into thinking he deserves so much credit when the Legion would have done much the same without him) but that does not excuse what he went on to do. Do you really think any sensible leader is going to accept something like the WGC after his army just wiped the floor with the force offering that concordat? Hell no.



So? The first conflict between what became modern Nords and what became modern Mer happened 3 era's ago when the Mer wiped out the entire human presence in Skyrim save Ysgramor and his 2 sons. This does not mean that the bad blood still isn't there.



Tell that to the Dunmer, who held beast-folk as slaves. Or the Altmer, who look down on everyone, and have been quietly committing essential genocide against the Bosmer. As I said, they're very very lucky they're even allowed in the city. They're lucky they aren't just outright executed.

doubt they'd actually care about Morrowind getting invaded.

Well durr. But that doesn't mean they don't realize the significance of what the Argonians did. If they have the capacity to invade Morrowind, they have the capacity to invade elsewhere. And besides, with their allegiance being up in the clouds, theres a lot of reasons not to trust them, particularly during a time of war.

Excellent post, well done.

My self would say stormclocks because they fight for the good of the land, The imperial tryes to take over and then they get pwned by the thalmors and they make the "golden-white" thing that removes the talos from the god list
So the imperial are more like a hired army that fight because they fear the thalmor.

Why would you guys want Ulfric to stop being racist while those fricking Imperials let the Thalmor being racist to Skyrim?

"The Empire exist because the Aldmeri Dominion allows it to exist.." Argh kiss my ***

Stormcloaks all the way Viva la revolution!

He didn't doom anything. He placed the Empire in a predicament that by making a decision that later proved bad in hindsight. The Empire and Tamriel can still be saved. The Concordat lasts only lasts so long as there is peace. And the Empire seems pretty convinced that peace won't last. In fact, they seem to be under the correct assumption that the Thalmor are the real enemy, something that neither they nor the Nords nor the Redguards ever felt prior to the Great War, even with the Thalmor rebuilding the Dominion.

You do realize that this also justifies the Nords rising up against Ulfric and his Stormcloaks, because honestly, he doesn't seem any better. In fact I'd even say he's more questionable than Titus Mede II. And unlike Ulfric, siding with the Empire gives two guaranteed allies along with a combined army. It also gives a land route into Dominion lands, once it comes to that. If Ulfric cared about Skyrim he'd wait until the Thalmor reopened hostilities before wasting men and resources fighting the very entity that should be their ally. But as it is he's just doing what the Thalmor want him to do.

The Dominion still held a decent remainder of Cyrodiil, and peace meant that the Legion didn't have to fight to retake it, thus allowing the nation to begin recovery without further bloodshed. Yes he failed to realize that the Concordat was engineered to break up the Empire by alienating the Nords and Redguards. No that does not mean he's a tyrant.

That doesn't mean it's justified. The Cyrodiilic Empire has been remarkably progressive with regards to racial equality. No living Nord actually fought against the Dunmer nation, and indeed, the Dunmer weren't doing too badly in Skyrim until Ulfric came into power .

That's still irrelevant to any conflict the Nords fought in during the last two centuries. That some of ther Mer have, or had, prejudices, doesn't mean that it justifies Ulfric's, especially considering such racial problems seem restricted to Windhelm.

They're not in Morrowind anymore. And I doubt it actually has anything to do with the threat they could pose as much as simple prejudice.

Because I feel that with Skyrim back on its side has a better chance against the Thalmor than the Stormcloaks do alone. They also have land that borders the Dominion, unlike an independent Skyrim. And once peace breaks down, Talos worship will no longer be banned.

That is simply Thalmor propaganda and bravado. If you look at the lore the Empire exists because the Aldmeri Dominion could not defeat it.

As for the Empire/Stormcloak discussion: Both sides can be justified and since we do not know what would happen after the civil war is over we ca only speculate. This thread(like so many before it) have shown many sides of the argument, but in the end it all comes down to personal preference and belief.

Yes, just a simple reason, because as you said, we don't know what would happen after the civil war. I just don't like the way the Thalmor talk, besides, the Empire did nothing about Skyrim's people getting caught for just worshipping a god.

And even though both sides can be justified, both sides also have their darker side. There is no right or wrong choice. I support the Empire because I believe it is the lesser of two evils in the longrun, but seen from the right perspective this is also true for the Stormcloaks.

Pretty much. If someone sides with the Stormcloaks, the Empire is doomed because they doomed it. If someone sides with the Empire, it's saved because they saved it.

Pretty much, yeah.

" Do not remeber me as a hero or king, but Remember me as A man, Flawed and weak"
-Beowulfs crowning momment of awesome
"The days of heros are dead, Killed by the christ God"

I hate how people say the Newer version of Beowulf stinks, I thought it was better then the original poem,
I loved how the potrayed him as A a very flawed man.

How come everybody's too stupid to see that? Stormcloaks are just the successful end result of Thalmor "divide and conquer" politicking.

Support the Thalmor; join the Stormcloaks today!

I suppose it all boils down to the fact that Americans automatically see the "rebels" fighting for independence as the "good guys". This despite the US treatment of it's own racist secessionist rebels, the Confederacy.

Incidentally the obv canon ending would be the Empire prevailing, since Ulfric's an asshat and a Thalmor agent and the Thalmor are obviously the bad guys, and the Stormcloaks too by association.

Im still not compleatly decided. I hope they put out some dlc that has to do with this sort of thing.

One thing to keep in mind is that skyrim can well defend itself if the stormcloaks win, and thats assuming its going on its own, and wont be allied with the other human provinces. It is surounded on 3 sides by mountians, with few paths leading through them that could be defended, and has frigid waters to the north, that are tough to navigate/ land troops from.

Another thing to keep in mind, the skyrim we have now in game would be hard enough to move supplies/armies through. BUT, this in game skyrim is like the skyrim of late sprin/early summer.

Now, beth didnt make changing seasons, but since this is a speculative adimeri invasion Im talking about, lets just say the seasons do change.

If this were the case, white run would look like the pale. Snow, and frigid temp/winds would blanket allmost all of skyrim, except for maybe the volcanic tundra, and the rift. The only port that wouldnt be frozen over would be solitude, and even still, it would be tough to get a whole navy to it. The thalmor would find them selves in a tactical nightmare, no matter who won the war, it would be like napolean/hitler in russia.

And realy and truely, the aldimeri dominion doesnt matter, which ever side the dragonborn chooses will beat them.