I feel like Bethesda was so terrified that the player might actually miss something that they specifically designed quests to lead you straight towards other, usually entirely unrelated, quests. This is why you can only refuse a quest 0.01 percent of the time, this is why you can find undroppable quest items for quests you've never even received, this is why your journal becomes so cluttered with stuff you don't even intend to do and you aren't even given the option of hiding those undesired entries, this is why you're practically drafted into every guild you overhear someone mumbling about. It's as though the magic compass highlighting every point of interest wasn't enough. They also had to build in what was effectively a quest arrow leading you by the nose to each and every yet undiscovered quest.

Look at Markarth: Jewelry stand lady sends you to deliver a ring to Calcelmo. This is an utterly worthless quest. You walk thirty seconds up the street and give some guy a random item. But this essentially ropes you into Calcelmo's spider killing/dwemer ruin mission. In Morthal: Idgrod has you deliver a letter to Whiterun's Danica Pure-Spring. Another worthless quest (though there's some distance at least), but it draws you into the Blessings of Nature quest. Skyrim is filled with these tiny, useless, boring quests whose only purpose seems to direct you to the real quests.

I really wonder just how many quests Skyrim would actually have if you ignored all these miscelaneous funneling quests.

Hmm... it almost sounds like you're saying that there are consequences for your character choosing not to use magic .... Also, I believe that it is possible to enter the college without joining.

Sneaking through the back and into the underforge, yup

Is 'into' really the right word? I'd say more like 'towards'. Getting the DB word Walls isn't a stretch for a non-assassin in RP terms - yes you have to assassinate someone, but they are a proper piece of work to start with, and at the end of the day it's one rather unsavoury life in order to spare who knows how many more by obliterating the DB.

The mages guild/elder scroll, big whoop, institution wants you to jump through some minor hoops before providing you with the info you need. You have to cast a spell in front of someone, that's not exactly pushing you INTO the MG questline is it?

Similarly, Esbern is hiding more or less with the thieves guild, so obviously you'll have a bit of contact with them. At no point are you cajoled or coerced into joining.

Honestly, I don't think every questline should be entirely insulated from one another.

That doesn't really justify murder, though, particularly if you don't know there's a word wall there or know you can take out the DB that way. Couldn't you turn the person over to the authorities? That Companions think it's okay to beat people up as a way to solve problems.

there's a rumour going round that this kid is trying to summon the DB. By stealing their thunder, that's bound to get their attention. Your only going to find them if they make contact with you, after all. And turn who over to the authorities, the little kid who they probably wouldn't take seriously, the assassin who would fight to the death or the unsavoury type, who is a nasty bugger but sadly within the bounds of the law?

It is when that's the first part of the MG quest line. Jumping through hoops is one thing, but joining up is another. It's like being made to join up with Harvard University if you just want to go talk with the Dean because the world is going to end.

considering the resentment and ill-will not just towards the college, but mages in general, that prevails throughout the whole province, your surprised they have such a vetting process for who they do and don't let in? "Hey, you are a complete stranger in a land that hates us, come in, come in!" see what I mean? You cast a spell and make the right noises, or tell them your dragonborn. How does that not make sense?


Yes you are, because that's where you're told to look, all signs point to it, and there's never any indication that the information can be found another way other than by joining. It doesn't help either that the TG contact accosts you the moment you enter the city.

so it's a surprise you have to ingratiate yourself to a certain degree with an illegal organisation in order to pass through their lair? Really?

There's a difference between questlines not being insulated from each other and being forced to start them. The MQ interacting with the thieves guild and mages guild is fine, but there's a lack of reasonable choices when dealing with them considering characters may be neither a mage or a thief. Oblivion had you interacting with the Mages Guild for its MQ, but it didn't force you to sign up. I believe Morrowind had you interacting with the guilds too, also without requiring you to join up.

you aren't joined up to either the MG or TG until you go and talk to so and so in both cases. You've blagged your way past the gatekeeper if you don't follow through with what they tell you to go and do. Nothing more. Hardly forcing one into doing the questline is it?

...I didn't find any problems with this on my first, "good" character. Run into a Daedric quest that says "do bad thing"? Say "no", and move on. Khajit in the streets of Solitude says "Hey, sabotage the lighthouse for me!" Uh, NO. Pretty simple.

You're saying this like it's a bad thing

It is. The quests are not only banol, but they're blatant attempts to guide the player in certain directions. This minimizes discovery and serves to undermine true player agency. They aren't undertaken because the player, through their own agency, sought them out, but because the game is constantly reminding you of all the content you have yet to complete.

If the game is designed in such a way as to compel exploration and discovery because the world is, in and of itself, interesting and worth the examination, then one need not use transparent contrivance to goad the player into participating. This is why Skyrim's stories so often fall flat. There is little incentive for completion beyond completion itself. Quests offer few choices, fewer consequences, and most fail even to provide compelling linear narratives.

But you can't say "no". All you can do is ignore the quest you were already given. Thus the game assuming you are going to complete it.

Personally i don't mind quest entries in the journal that i'm not going to complete (i have the quests i am going to complete marked, and the compass modded so that it doesn't show quest arrows), but i do understand why some people do.

It is. The quests are not only banol, but they're blatant attempts to guide the player in certain directions. This minimizes discovery and serves to undermine true player agency. They aren't undertaken because the player, through their own agency, sought them out, but because the game is constantly reminding you of all the content you have yet to complete.

If the game is designed in such a way as to compel exploration and discovery because the world is, in and of itself, interesting and worth the examination, then one need not use transparent contrivance to goad the player into participating. This is why Skyrim's stories so often fall flat. There is little incentive for completion beyond completion itself. Quests offer few choices, fewer consequences, and most fail even to provide compelling linear narratives.

You are not forced to do quests unless you choose to do a quest that essentially leads into another, and even then you can just let it sit in your journal. You can go exploring and never do a single quest if you like. The only quest you are forced to do in it's entirety is Unbound. Once that is over, you're free to do what you want. You need never do another quest again if you choose

...of course, much of this debate is off the wild assumption that everyone plunged straight on with the MQ before exploring the rest of the world...

It has already been said that you can exit out of conversation before the quest is given, essentially saying no to the quest.

I think Todd Howard (or someone else at Bethesda) is the same kind of gamer, because I do get the impression that the devs expect everyone to play that way. It is true you do not have to, and I certainly do not, but I do feel that is the mind set Bethesda has when it comes to their main quest lines.

You weren't forced to grind for attribute multipliers in Morrowind and Oblivion despite it stunting your character's growth, you weren't forced to jump everywhere you walked despite it being a faster means of travel than running, you weren't forced to use fast travel even when a quest requires you to travel from one corner of the map to the other, you weren't forced to take the emperor's amulet to Jauffre. You are rarely forced to do anything. That does not mean, however, that the game doesn't strongly incentivize certain behavior, either because it improves your character's abilities or because it matches your character's motivations or because the world at large can't stop shutting up about the bard's college in solitude. Design of this nature should be minimized at the least, eliminated at best.

You'd be surprised. I've had friends who told me they rented the game, played for a couple hours, and then gave up on the way to High Hrothgar because they couldn't deal with the frost troll. If you get to High Hrothgar within two or three hours, you haven't been doing much exploration.

You weren't forced to grind for attribute multipliers in Morrowind and Oblivion despite it stunting your character's growth, you weren't forced to jump everywhere you walked despite it being a faster means of travel than running, you weren't forced to use fast travel even when a quest requires you to travel from one corner of the map to the other, you weren't forced to take the emperor's amulet to Jauffre. You are rarely forced to do anything. That does not mean, however, that the game doesn't strongly incentivize certain behavior, either because it improves your character's abilities or because it matches your character's motivations or because the world at large can't stop shutting up about the bard's college in solitude. Design of this nature should be minimized at the least, eliminated at best.

Not when it's not apparent a dialog will give the quest, like rumors. Not when the conversation is marked as inescapable. Not when the quest is given before you have a chance to respond. Not when the quest is triggered just by being near people who are talking. Not when a quest is started just by reading a benign-looking book. Not when you get a quest by picking up a random item (which you then can't drop).

Not surprised at all actually. There's myriad ways to approach the game, not everyone will play the same way. One will plunge straight on with the main quest, another will break off and start something else (MG or companions for example) whilst yet another will go naked rock climbing.

However, are you surprised that a game will at the very least try to tempt you into it's story arcs? Theres nothing wrong with not immediately delivering that amulet to jauffre for example. Maybe your character was a dodgy type and wanted to try and sell it. Maybe they just didnt fancy round 2 with the mythic Dawn.

Similarlyin skyrim, maybe your character does actually split up with the other guy after the cave, doesn't get to riverwood, ergo isn't asked to take a message to whiterun - the MQ isn't started. Maybe they just think 'screw whiterun, deliver your own message'.

No questline starts in such a way as to break immersion if you don't plow on with it straight away.

But you can't say "no". All you can do is ignore the quest you were already given. Thus the game assuming you are going to complete it.

It is. The quests are not only banol, but they're blatant attempts to guide the player in certain directions. This minimizes discovery and serves to undermine true player agency. They aren't undertaken because the player, through their own agency, sought them out, but because the game is constantly reminding you of all the content you have yet to complete.

If the game is designed in such a way as to compel exploration and discovery because the world is, in and of itself, interesting and worth the examination, then one need not use transparent contrivance to goad the player into participating. This is why Skyrim's stories so often fall flat. There is little incentive for completion beyond completion itself. Quests offer few choices, fewer consequences, and most fail even to provide compelling linear narratives.