Why did they remove attributes : V - Skyrim

» Tue May 08, 2012 7:36 am

How so? I've already shown that Strength is the force, the "oomph". The force is the "hit harder" part that you seem to be totally missing. It's a branch of demonstratable science called Physics.

With your logic a 45 kilogram child that has trained for 5 years to hit a bag can hit harder than a man that is 120 kilos and has the strength to lift 180kilos but has only trained for 2 years.

But with the strength attribute, you can then have a child like Spark in Ultima 7 have 30 strength (max), as strong as a grown man like Dupre.

How does having the strength attribute prevent you from having a child that has 100 strength in Oblivion? Even stronger than grown orcs and nords who opt to train in magic?

Nevermind the fact that we cannot be a child in Skyrim.

In the end, the attributes system also makes things illogical. Neither system is perfect.

» Tue May 08, 2012 8:37 am

I can tell you why , a reason they wont fess up to but its absolutely true

They want to broaden the appeal of the TES games, so they dumbed them down to appeal to the action fans

Just like what happened to ME2

Just like what happened to DA2

RPG focused companies keep staring at the 100s of millions coming from COD and really want a slice of that pie

And thus was born the streamlined and rpg lite TES

Partly. But it also broadens the appeal for people who want to do exploring, spend time talking to NPCs, go thieving, get jobs, trade goods, etc.

To be honest the only people who benefited by the old system, were those who wanted to do star jumps in the town square for 2 hours (real time) to raise athletics, or summon skeleton after skeleton to use a target practice. To me that was neither fun or particularly good role playing.

That said, there was always the option to fix the system rather than scrap it. Oh well.

» Tue May 08, 2012 4:36 pm

What a load of rubbish, 1)if that were true then tractors, trucks or any other heavy machinery wouldn't exist because people could train in the right technique to do the work. Speed, precision, and technique certainly factor in but a strong person can innately hit harder than a weak person with no training and lots of stamina. I'd love to see a Kenyan marathon runner with a huge Stamina go up against a boxer like Mike Tyson, I know who I'd put money on. Even if they were just hitting their own punching bag.

How so? I've already shown that Strength is the force, the "oomph". The force is the "hit harder" part that you seem to be totally missing. It's a branch of demonstratable science called Physics.

2)With your logic a 45 kilogram child that has trained for 5 years to hit a bag can hit harder than a man that is 120 kilos and has the strength to lift 180kilos but has only trained for 2 years.

1.Yes people can do the work machines do, only slower

2.I've seen something similar in action
16y old teenager who trained in martial arts for 10 years (60-70Kg) against 25y old guy (or should I said "beef") who have been in army
It didn't went well for army guy

» Tue May 08, 2012 8:06 am

Only the attributes like strength, personality, agility, etc have been removed. Numbers like skills are still in.

Attributes have been removed, and perks have been introduced to replace them.

Ok, I'll admit I've been caught up in some tangents. After going back to the start and rereading bits I almost agree with the above.

"Attributes have been removed, and perks have been introduced to replace" their bonuses. Which I suppose is getting a little depantic. Maybe I should have absorbed this one the first time..... :whistling:

» Tue May 08, 2012 12:55 am

Attributes give a character more detail in what he is capable of. I scored always hits on a orc with little agility and he had a really hard time with the same thing because I invested allot in the agility attribute. He had an amazing strength while I had little, so when he did hit me, he took a good chunk of health.

This is what I will miss the most because of the removal of attributes, the diversity amongst attributes aka diversity in battle.

» Tue May 08, 2012 3:48 am

1.Yes people can do the work machines do, only slower

2.I've seen something similar in action
16y old teenager who trained in martial arts for 10 years (60-70Kg) against 25y old guy (or should I said "beef") who have been in army
It didn't went well for army guy

Doesn't mean he could hit harder, just means he did better at a bout with lots of hits. :toughninja:

» Tue May 08, 2012 3:37 am

I don't remember Betrayal at Krondor having attributes like strength, dexterity and intelligence. In fact, BoK system is similar to Elder Scrolls. They are skill based. The more you use a skill, the more it increases. It didn't stop it from being a nice RPG game.

Attributes are a legacy of the past when games weren't that complicated with skills like what we have now. Strength = damage. Dexterity = accuracy. Intelligence = magic. They are now starting to look really outdated. A good example would be in WoW. A tank will never need to use agility, intellect and spirit. A caster will never use strength, agility and stamina. Each class only really uses 2 stats.

I've never played BoK or WoW because they don't have the attributes. Just because no attributes work for those doesnt mean every game has to follow. Then the old school D&Ders like me have games they are happy with and those that won't something different are catered for.

» Tue May 08, 2012 4:23 pm

Skills give a character more detail in what he is capable of.

Good that we agree that Attributes aren't required as long as we got a lot of Skills to describe our builds

» Tue May 08, 2012 1:24 am

Please use the search function, this has been discussed like 10^99 times.

Yeah, come on TC, even a "consoler" could have figured that one out.
/sarcasm

» Tue May 08, 2012 12:54 am

They were useless. Useless things should be removed.

» Tue May 08, 2012 8:53 am

Doesn't mean he could hit harder, just means he did better at a bout with lots of hits. :toughninja:

Nope, he evaded few hits then did two hit combo and fight was done
It was the agility and skill to know where and how to hit that determined the outcome of this fight
(and usually agility and skill determines outcome of most fights)

» Tue May 08, 2012 8:50 am

I've never played BoK or WoW because they don't have the attributes. Just because no attributes work for those doesnt mean every game has to follow. Then the old school D&Ders like me have games they are happy with and those that won't something different are catered for.

Again, perks can do what attributes could. Having both attributes and perks side-by-side is overkill.

The old attributes system was clunky because it forced you to carefully level major and minor skills so that you can have x5 attribute multiplers in the 3 stats that you like. There were times in Oblivion caves where I didn't want to continue because I already leveled my major skills too much and I didn't want to level in the dungeon without a bed. Too much meta-gaming where you micromanaged everything.

Attributes did confuse me in Oblivion and Fallout. A few times I wasn't sure whether I had the right build and it didn't give me a peace of mind.

Perks system seem more straight forward. Less time micromanaging stats, more time spent actually playing the game.

» Tue May 08, 2012 4:05 pm

In a lot of ways the attributes kind of hindered what you could turn your character into, especially in the case of Oblivion. You couldn't make a very effective Nord Mage because your natural stats already stacked against you in favor of being a Warrior archetype.

Personally, I think the Skyrim system offers more personalization and customization, which is what we all want here. :tops:

» Tue May 08, 2012 6:31 am

Doesn't mean he could hit harder, just means he did better at a bout with lots of hits. :toughninja:

You can always imagine that someone who is very good at sword play is strong enough to deal strong damage through it. Because it is impossible for a weakling to ever be good at wielding a sword.
Someone who is very good at archery should have a high enough agility to use bows.
Someone who is very good at magic should be intelligent enough to cast spells.

So the [imaginary] attributes like strength, agility and intellect are derived/deduced from the skill level.

» Tue May 08, 2012 6:44 am

What a load of rubbish, if that were true then tractors, trucks or any other heavy machinery wouldn't exist because people could train in the right technique to do the work. Speed, precision, and technique certainly factor in but a strong person can innately hit harder than a weak person with no training and lots of stamina. I'd love to see a Kenyan marathon runner with a huge Stamina go up against a boxer like Mike Tyson, I know who I'd put money on. Even if they were just hitting their own punching bag.

You demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge here. Tyson hit like a truck because he had excellent technique and blistering speed in the pocket. When he was working in close, he had laser-guided hands that came flying at your chin faster than the speed of sound. And I can also guarantee you that Mike Tyson hits harder than Bob Sapp, the 400-pound mountain of steroidy goodness from the video in my first post.

How so? I've already shown that Strength is the force, the "oomph". The force is the "hit harder" part that you seem to be totally missing. It's a branch of demonstratable science called Physics.

No, you simply said it. And it is untrue. Force equals mass times acceleration. The "oomph" (I am so tired of that word, so in your inevitable rebuttal, please do us both a favor and think of a different one) is the speed. While the SIZE of a person's arm may contribute, speed is the much more important factor. Strength, defined in terms of how much you can benchpress, has absolutely nothing to do with it.

With your logic a 45 kilogram child that has trained for 5 years to hit a bag can hit harder than a man that is 120 kilos and has the strength to lift 180kilos but has only trained for 2 years.

Again, no, what I'm saying is that this man -

http://www.mmaconvert.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/cain_velasquez.thumbnail.jpg

- demonstrably hits much, much harder than this man:

http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/pictures/b/brocklesnar/25.jpg

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:57 am

Good that we agree that Attributes aren't required as long as we got a lot of Skills to describe our builds

Let me rephrase

Attributes give a character more detail in what hes body and mind is capable of.

» Tue May 08, 2012 4:32 am

Unless it's better implemented, won't this happen without the old attributes?

1) Crunch, an orc, uses only a 2H axe. Crunch has 100 Skill in 2H weapons.
2) Twitch, a bosmer, uses only a bow. Twitch has 100 skill in the bow.
3) Smartypants, an altmer, fights only with magic. Smartypants has 100 skill in destruction.
4) If they were to fight each other only with a dagger, each will have the exact same damage potential as the others, assuming equal skill levels in 1H weapons.

» Tue May 08, 2012 6:46 am

I'm personally glad their gone.

In Oblivion I had to create a skills 'chart' for myself to keep notes on to ensure I always raised the proper 10 points over the 3 skills governed by whatever attribute I was trying to level up the full 5 points in.

^^^^That was tedious to write and in game it was tedious to do but essential if I wanted a character that had 100 in all attributes.

This time around I can just play the game, free from worrying what skills I 'need' to have raised by the time I need to level up. and that makes me very happy :celebration:

» Tue May 08, 2012 5:34 am

Even if it were dumbed down for console by removing attributes to pull in more casuals that still wouldn't make sense. This is still a deep RPG at the end of the day like the previous ones and no amount of "changing the way the stats work" is going to pull in the casuals and the CoD crowd if these same people didn't care for Oblivion or even Fallout 3 etc.

» Tue May 08, 2012 3:09 pm

I'm personally glad their gone.

In Oblivion I had to create a skills 'chart' for myself to keep notes on to ensure I always raised the proper 10 points over the 3 skills governed by whatever attribute I was trying to level up the full 5 points in.

^^^^That was tedious to write and in game it was tedious to do but essential if I wanted a character that had 100 in all attributes.

This time around I can just play the game, free from worrying what skills I 'need' to have raised by the time I need to level up. and that makes me very happy :celebration:

There are mods which made leveling better. Because a certain implementation is done wrong, doesn't mean you must scrap it altogether and start anew.

Anyway, we will see how well the other system works in TES.

» Tue May 08, 2012 7:03 am

because they [censored] felt like it.

» Tue May 08, 2012 3:51 pm

Unless it's better implemented, won't this happen without the old attributes?

1) Crunch, an orc, uses only a 2H axe. Crunch has 100 Skill in 2H weapons.
2) Twitch, a bosmer, uses only a bow. Twitch has 100 skill in the bow.
3) Smartypants, an altmer, fights only with magic. Smartypants has 100 skill in destruction.
3) If they were to fight each other only with a dagger, each will have the exact same damage potential as the others, assuming equal skill levels in 1H weapons.

It reminds me an argue about fight between elephant and whale

Anyway
In game I would bet on orsimer or bosmer
in real life anyone could win, since altmer could simply outsmart other 2

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:51 am

There are mods which made leveling better. Because a certain implementation is done wrong, doesn't mean you must scrap it altogether and start anew.

Anyway, we will see how well the other system works in TES.

I play on XBOX

EDIT: It seems to be (lately at least on this forum) that PC users use mods as a be all and end all for any argument

» Tue May 08, 2012 10:25 am

I play on XBOX

Since when "I" is ultimate argument?

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:15 am

Since when "I" is ultimate argument?

The person I was talking to mentioned there where mods to fix the levelling issues in Oblivion so I answered by saying I play on XBOX as in no mods for me. How is that has anything to do with whatever you where trying to say I don't know.