I assume you can catch the diseases that turns you into vampire or werewolf....wait, you can still catch the diseases that turns you into a vampire or werewolf right?

I'd assume that a primary effect of most diseases would be reducing your health, magicka or stamina, which seems perfectly fine. That'll also trickle down, e.g. stamina affects how much you can carry, so that could be reduced by a disease, and so on.

Besides those 2 there are numerous diseases in Tamriel

Lol you get around don't you? You were somewhere else spouting the same stuff.

It has nothing to do with dumbing it down or appealing to action fans.

Take off the tin foil hat for a second and think about it.

Every stat boiled down to Health, stamina or magic in the first place. So there is no point in convoluting this with a slew of stats that are all different sides of the same coin.
Whenever anyone levels up anywhere they basically ask themselves the same thing: health, stamina, or magic?

That's it. For example I never once placed a point in personality or luck.

Lets look at the others.
Endurance and strength were basically two sides of the same coin of health. Strength was redundant though since it raised your melee weapon damage but so did your skill with the weapon anyways.

Int, and Will were just oposite sides of magic. Noone just raised willpower.

Speed and agility were pretty similar to endurance and strength except for stamina/running speed.

But what is quit possibly the biggest flaw in your arguement is that when considering perks and all available combat options, skills, and attributes this is far, FAR MORE complicated.

Leveling is also far more exciting and worth it now.
Hell in Fallout you didnt even upgrade your attributes at ALL and you are over here claiming its all dumbed down. You could upgrade your attributes only if you took the perk.
They've only added things to the leveling process and made it more complicated if anything.

They just removed useless skills and attributes that everyone complained about anyways, then when they do (which I THANK you for bethesda, they were literally pointless) people come in here and say its dumbed down. Tsk Tsk.

You make a very convincing argument.

What? Maybe I am playing RPGs wrong but I never asked myself this question
I have understanding what attributes affected, but It was never my goal to increase stats
To me it was semi-RP question "So what my character gained during his adventures since last level-up?"

No.
Please check what attribute affects what. Personality of 200 and EVERYTHING is friendly towards you, for example.
Agility affects staggering, ranged damage and fatigue.

Lol I can't tell if you are responding to the OP or me? regardless.

please tell me your not serious!

Attributes were just a pointless middleman that were annoying to min/max. They had no reason for existing, so they no longer do.

And yet every single interview from Beth says, we made it much more user friendly and easier to understand, how is it far far more complicated and yet they are boosting that its easier?

Cant be both.


Attributes did things, just because some werent balanced (wisdom) you dont cut them out completely you fix them.

If they really wanted to change stuff and not dumb it down it would have been a simple fix to make wisdom to something more.

Not to remove it all together


You take off your beth fan boi button and ill take off my tin hat.

I just knew I would see you here Bethy

Well since I AM the OP I'm most likely replying to you (otherwise I'd be a tad strange). =)

However Sein_Spvssyn made a good counter argument though.

I know what they did. I didn't say what personality did I just said it was useless. And it was supposed to be impossible to obtain a personality of 200 since all attributes were supposed to max out and stop being affective after 100.

And now stamina is the one that affects staggering.
Fatigue is stamina
And ranged damage is redundant since marksman skill (or archery now) is the damage modifyer anyways.

The stats had some minor differences but all that happened is they got rid of two popularly deemed useless stats (personality and luck, i'm sorry but nobody liked personality. And in combat it was useless. It was useless anyways because through speechcraft or a simple illusion spell you could get high enough dispositions to get any piece of information).

The others were just combined.
No one picked agility because of its staggering resistance (which was negligable). It was chosen for its primary cause of raising archery and fatigue/stamina.

Why have Int and Will? Its similar to the redundant question of health or defense?. They both equate to taking more hits before death. That is the final point and all that matters in gameplay.
Int and Will are just combined now since they were two sides of the same coin.
Similar with every stat.

Yes.
Your example is less than good.
You now have perks that affect staggering, ranged damage, and you can increase Stamina at level up.
We have a better system. You haven't lost anything.

Its clear the game is a roleplaying game since you can build your character any way you want and use items to make it effective in battle. I'm not concerned.

The removal of attributes is possibly the dumbest decision Bethesda have made during the development of Skyrim.

And to be blunt, if you cannot fathom why it's a dumb decision, then you don't understand how RPGs should work and are probably the kind of person who would have no problems whatsoever if the TES series became an action-adventure series.

Well removing is easier than fixing (remember what they did to levitation, climbing and vertical content in general)
But yes they should fix system instead of simply throwing things out.

BTW are you playing D&D version of TES? Because There is only intelligence and willpower in TES, wisdom is from D&D

Action RPGs? JRPGs? Table top rpgs? D10 tabletop rpgs? D20 rpgs? GURPS RPG? D6 rpg? BESM? LARPS? MUDS? etc?

I'm afraid my poor knowledge of different types of roleplaying games as stunted my ability to know why it's a dumb decision.

It can be both in my opinion. You can make something easier to understand while placing more choices in the way. Again look at the leveling system in fallout 3 which is LESS complex then the one presented here.

I suppose they made this for me then, since all I care about is stats that actually matter and make a difference.

Lol. well...if i take off my bottom i'll be..naked?
I am a fan of bethesda's for sure though. And I do agree with every change I've heard about to Skyrim.

A fan boi agree's with things that don't make sense (to my understanding) just because they are fans of a series.
It makes perfect sense to agree with this. I'm just speaking with personal experience that those were the only stats I ever cared about in the first place. I only upgraded willpower because it was necessary to upgrade both that and Int to really upgrade magic.

I only upgraded speed/agility for the stamina and only upgraded endurance for the health.

Ah, so you never tried any of the level up revamp mods?

Bethesda apparently used a dumbed-down view of attributes as a justification for dropping them, because all they gave for their reasoning was this:
In Oblivion, we also have the following affected by attributes: running speed, jumping height, carry weight, weapon damage, stagger-avoidance, effective skill level, odds at gambling, odds of dispelling with Mehrune's Razor, initial reactions from NPCs, and magicka regeneration rate. Nothing there boils down to levels of Health, Fatigue, or Magicka.

They might have said that they didn't have time for attributes because they were focusing on other things. They might have said that attributes didn't fit their overall game-design goal. Either of those answers would have suggested that their reasoning is complex and that sorry, they just can't take the time to explain it further. Instead, they give an exceedingly dumbed-down, idiotic answer that deserves some ridicule.

EDIT: I think actual answer Todd gives is that everything that attributes did boils down to something else, not just to one of the three derived attributes. I think he probably means more than his words seem to say.

Just to make you understand my standpoint. I don't care what system is in place. I like games with much options (for example a four vector approach of Sacred [Attributes, Skills, Combat Arts and Item Sockets]) and also games with less options.
The way the developers have done it in OB is a good one but they did not ripe the fruits correct. Why does Personality not affect much? Because OB is a combat heavy game and not much in the department of dialog and interactions.
With the removal of options you also limit the way what the game is possible to do. For example, in OB the developers only made (N)PCs react to each other based on disposition. Disposition is affected by Personality and faction reactions. Of course you see in game that personality is irrelevant. But why not have it another way? Increase the possibility. It is perfectly doable to add dialog choices based on personality and disposition. Beauty McHorny will only tell you her Secret when you have a personality of 80 or greater and disposition of 60 or greater.
With the removal of such customization options you devoid the game of such gems.
It is just an example. This does not mean that Skyrim won't have such things. We don't know.

Bethesda didn't made up FO role system, they just adapted it from isometric 3rd person pov to 3D 1st person pov
Basically it is as close to original as Bethesda could get
Although I didn't liked that you were forced to spend all skill points during level up, and couldn't leave some for later (like in FO/FO2)

How nice of the king of RPG's to drop in and enlighten us how RPG's SHOULD work.
lol

I can't fathom why its a dumb decision and, in fact, I endorse it. RPG stand for role playing game. It doesn't somehow stand for "Upgrade useless stats game" You play a role in this game and, thus, it is a role playing game.

Did you crap bricks when they revealed that you pretty much didn't upgrade stats in fallout 3? (Unless you chose the perk to).