Once again
Before commenting to FO3 role system PLAY FO AND FO2 GODDAMMIT!!!

I'm with you.

Speed is part of stamina, Didn't care about jumping, carrying weight is still in the game (though I'm unsure how it's increased?) weapon damage was redundant since the skill of the weapon determines that, there was no gambling in oblivion, mehrunes razor was a late add on, reactions from NPCs are still in the game based on what type of character you are and not some magical aura around you (I assume personality was how well you smelled), regeneration rate of magicka is part of the magic stat. Half of what you said boils down to Fatigue or magicka and the other half was useless nonsense like jumping hight?. I don't even think a stat influenced that. Acrobatics did.

Todd howard already commented on this, I was telling you what they said. They got rid of the stats everyone thought was useless and thought, as i did, that they all pretty much boiled down to either more health, magic, or stamina in the end. And if they didn't they were pretty useless (like personality).

This quote dominates the thread.

As for the 'well it just boils down to health, stamina and magicka anyway', so then why not remove weapon and magic types, since they just translate to damage?
May as well remove the hassle of picking a different weapon, since they all have the same end result, it will remove a lot more complication and make it simpler.

I have a hunch the next TES will kick off breaking out of Guantanamo Bay

I remember finding "Pants of Personality" in daggerfall...I laughed for a minute straight.

I believe this was a bad idea because magicka, stamina and health + a bunch of assorted skills is not enough to fully describe your characters full range of abilities. It might be if they had a hundred skills. What worries me is this is a continuing trend, each game getting less depth in some way. Would people find some way to defend it if in Elder Scrolls 6 they decide to scrap the different magic schools and just have a magic skill tree covering all spells? I can imagine comments like "Oh it's better now don't need to worry about all these different spell schools" but at what cost? Depth, customisation. I would not be surprised if something like that happened because if you continue to head down this road at some point you sell out your game and turn it into a truly mainstream action game.

Stats were another way to customise your character to say how he is different from another, and Bethesda making broken stats systems in the past was not a reason to remove them it was a reason to fix them instead.

But it is only obvious that your pants determines your personality, right?

Without attributes, you'd need a hundred stats to describe a character fully but can do it instead with 8 attributes and 20 stats?

Probably something like that since it caused wildlife to become friendly with you past some point.

Not the same at all.
Those translate into an actual varying factor of how you play each character.
All they did was combine, in essance, willpower and intelligence for example.

If you wanted to really buff your magic you would increase both anyways.

But whatever lol. I'll be enjoying the system. Then the next game will have thousands of attributes where 500 of them will be so minor they won't even effect the gameplay.

But for now, I will cherish bethesda for listening to their fans and I will enjoy a system I finally agree with 100%.

Yes, Health, Magicka and Stamina (and numerous other stats) are only results, while attributes were the reason
I don't know how to explain this better
Just see H2O for example, it can be Steam, Water, Snow and Ice, but you can achieve all this by manipulating only one thing- temperature (and pressure if you want to play [censored])
Same basic principle here

Apparently a lot of gamers are to stupid to figure out attributes... thats way they have been removed!


Also this!

With no stats I wonder how turning into a Vampire or Werewolf will work? Usually there is a attribute bump that makes you a faster and harder hitting but with no attributes I wonder how this is handled

I always thought attributes indicated innate ability where as skill indicated trained ability. Attributes should be more than just numbers and they help define the physical and mental make up of a character. They are also used to derive whole swag of other abilities not to mention boost or detract from trained skills.

If attributes have been dropped then how do you determine things like carry weight limitations? Encumberance limitations such as being able to stand upright in heavy armour? You may be able to carry the weight but once on you can't manouver very well.

It all smacks of the NGE for Star Wars Galaxies but they are trying to slip it in at a slower rate rather than all at once.

Also I should say that magicka is clearly an attribute to increase for spellcasters and stamina + health are mainly for warriors. Where is the thief stat? We used to have speed, agility which is not really covered by the above 3. Instead I guess we will end up with rogues built like a tank who can swing greataxes all day long and not get tired. Since there's no strength stat and only perks we will hit nearly as hard with said greataxe as a pure warrior too. This is the sort of thing I mean.

*sigh* that is not why they removed them. Its just why have things unnecessarily convoluted? we had 8 stats. Only three of which were actually balanced and important and even worth choosing.

The rest were either smaller versions of the larger stats or just useless.

I, for one, can't wait for this system and I hope it persists through every game. Its similar to many math books. They say things in such convoluted ways when entire sections can sometimes be described in a sentence without all of the mumbo jumbo.

Why divide Int and Will when they were both required to raise magic anyways? just make it one stat instead of trying to false hype your game.

OH LOOK WE HAVE DOZENS OF STATS!!!! but only three of them have any meaning and are clearly the best choices.

yes i beleive this could be the last good eldar scrolls if the keep trying to appeal to the masses for cash and not trying to make the best rpg

Dominates the thread? More like made everyone else with common sense put a palm on their face. And yes of course, the nice hyperbole used as an argument. Removing redundant stats leads to the removal of entire weapons and magic system.

Some people just want to hang on to attributes, simply for the sake of wanting attributes. They really are redundant. Strength only affected your carrying weight and your melee damage. Why not just make weapon skill determine your damage, and then use stamina to increase your carrying weight? Thus the strength attribute is redundant.

The attributes system does confuse me in Oblivion and Fallout. It is better to let your skills determine your character rather than attributes.

It's like how medium armor is redundant. I totally agree with removing it and just having light armor and heavy armor.

I however disagree with removing of various weapon types like spears, crossbows and shurikens. But I'll try my best to live with them being gone.

Please, what EA did to BioWare doesnt even compare to this change.
I felt that the DA + DA2 and ME2 was a shadow of what could have been if it wasnt for the issues you guys claim.

This game is something completely different, its not cheaped down. Theyve spendt years on doing this as good as possible. If the removal of attributes is as bad to you as what happened to BioWare, we're not on the same level at all.

If they had removed attributes in DA2 it would drown in the rest of the shortcomings of the game. in this forum it's almost like its blown out of proportions due to lack of anything else to complain about.

Ill take skill tree's over attributes and be happy about it. As long as the game is full of good content, nice armours and gear, good surroundings, alot of variety. Really the stuff that made me love RPG's in the first place.

The radiant ai and radiant story will make a better RPG game than the personality attribute.

There are no classes so this is a moot point.
Your skills will determine what you are good at not attributes. When its level up time just choose the one that you want to raise.
It's not about "Oh this one is for mage and this one for theif" Its about "which area do you want to improve?". since you can sprint now stamina is pretty much speed related.

And no you will not hit as hard with a greataxe because to do so you have to practice with the great axe. You are what you practice at. If you are a rogue and only using a bow well you have practiced and spent all your time with the bow. The warrior has spent his time with the axe. He will have perks and his skill with the axe will far outweigh yours.

No you won't hit nearly as hard...not even close actually.

ie. strength = increased damage. How does increasing stamina increase how hard I hit? Having a high stamina doesn't mean that you're automatically stronger. Even increasing your proficiency in a skill doesn't necessarily mean you can hit harder either.
What was the point in dumbing it down, if not to appease the console players?
The attribute system was not in any way 'complicated'. It could use fixing sure, but I'd have much preferred it to be fixed than removed completely.

Heh, the way things are going Progress Quest is shaping up to be a better option. Although that's probably a little too harsh at this stage.

we can only hope

Hey look, someone like me!.
Ho there!.

Lol I agree with you. I feel like some of them would be just fine with 30 stats even if half of them were "speed, agility, running, swiftness, ability to move, getting over there, and skill at putting one foot in front of other"
I also agree about medium armor which was always stupid. It is now a refined list of things that are actually meaningfull and useful instead of a thousand stats and skills to sift through which ones are actually worth while.