i personally find the health, magika and stamina stats to be completely useless
they say it all trickles down to them but i disagree
and having to choose 1 everytime i level up annoys me

i dont want extra health or stamina

maybe magika - only coz my 1st build will be a mage

but id prefer if they had more skills

or if they just left it how fallout out was

that was the best system ever in my opinion

If you completely ignore the RPG part... Strength can also be used to bully someone into doing what you want. It can be used to impress a female who likes hulky males. All this is not possible anymore.

Not necessarily true.

Stamina:

One - A person with exceptional stamina can hit harder, for several reasons. One, stamina reflects your state of physical health - your body working more efficiently is a much more important factor for damage than any amount of muscle. I've seen complete muscle sharks who couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag, and skinny triathlon runners who can knock professional tough men on their ass. Two, high stamina also gives one the confidence that they can put more oomph in their blows without tiring. So yes, stamina directly increases how hard you hit in a number of ways.

Proficiency of skill:

As should be immediately obvious, the single most important factor in determining the damage of any sort of combat is technique. Ask anyone who has ever actually trained in violent arts. As evidence, I present this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ec19YyRtm4&feature=related

They already said the point and their reasoning.

Somehow people are putting words in their mouths like crazy even though they addressed this already.

They looked at all the old attributes and found that half of them were either useless, addressed elsewear, or just another side of a different stat.

Increasing stamina doesn't determin how hard you hit, your skill with a weapon does.

Your right, skill doesnt mean you can hit harder so we should just conform to choosing the strength stat from a list since that is so realistic. The point is its already embedded in the system that your skill with a weapon determines its damage. The stat is just redundant.

It wasn't complicated but it was extremely convoluted. There was no point in ever increasing willpower unless you were working on your magic bar, so you'd increase Int as well anyways.

Agility was redundant since marksmanship increased bow damage as it was but i'd only choose that IF i was also working on my speed stat.

Strength was also redundant since the skill with a weapon was already determined.

Never upgaded personality or luck. Again I don't care about having a whole bunch of stats. I just want to upgrade the things that actually matter.

Yeah, we should also only have just armour. No heavy or light, 2 types just over complicates things as they do the same job. Also there only needs to be "Suit of armour" 4 pieces is just too complicated. So that's just spell damage, weapon damage and armour. You don't need anything else. It's all just redundant anyway and equates to the same thing. If you talk to someone your success chance should be based on your weapon damage because who's going to argue with a person waving a weapon in their face? Yep, that's all we need. Ta thnx.

This is what we like to call a strawman.

Weird, quoted text was not original text in reply screen.

Obviously your first character is going to be an archer as that's one very long bow you've drawn there.

OK, stamina doesn't allow you to put more "oomph" at all. To do it for longer yes, more "oomph" no. The "oomph" is strength. Just in relation to the what you put there.

Strength - Physical strength is the ability of a person or animal to exert force on physical objects using muscles.

Stamina - Endurance (also called Sufferance, Stamina, or Durability) is the ability for a human or animal to exert itself and remain active for a long period of time, as well as its ability to resist, withstand, recover from, and have immunity to trauma, wounds, or fatigue. In humans, it is usually used in aerobic or anaerobic exercise. The definition of 'long' varies according to the type of exertion - minutes for high intensity anaerobic exercise, hours or days for low intensity aerobic exercise. Training for endurance can have a negative impact on the ability to exert strength unless an individual also undertakes resistance training to counteract this effect.

Lastly - Draw a long bow (Idiom) If someone draws a long bow, they lie or exaggerate.

I have absolutely no idea what this means, as I have never heard this phrase before. Instead, I'll take your post at face value. My first character will probably be a mage.

Wrong wrong and wrong.

Attribute where 50% of customization source. Since you where able to do develop a fast or slow character, strong or weak. And any combination attribute brought.
They also where a direct input to skills and a definitive point in character develoment.

IMO:
New system require less work from developer, so they can concentrate on other things.
IDKW but surely developer got excited by morons warping the gameplay, exploiting and using cheats and gloating themselves over the internet (like to run into a wall for hours or auto sneak into a wall near a NPC location)
It require less coding so less space to ressource crippled consoles
It s a market trend to dumb down RPGs to action games, it seems many people have issues to understand and interpret whats happening on the screen, or this is just the wanna be reason to get less work in this department.
If you look at the perks they tend to bring everybody to the same level or railing customizations so its easyer to control and rail the player and develop into this limitation than have to deal with a widely range of possibilities.

Those seem he real reasons to kill attributes and some skills (altought some skills where rendered useless anyway by bad implementation and game mechanics.) The rest is only regurgotation of false excuses and smoke screen.

On Beth Bashing HOrriblivion its easy now that Oblivion is irrelevant and its surely a good point of sell as so many complained about it.

Of course skill contributes, I absolutely agree that a trained martial artist would wipe the floor with any gym junkie (Bully Beatdown anyone?) but to say that 'strength is redundant' is just plain wrong. Pavel Datsyuk is one of, if not THE most skillful puckhandlers in the history of NHL, so by this logic, he should have a harder shot than that of Al McInnis.
Bruce Lee wasn't just skin and bones.

Great minds think alike.

I am torn between extreme anticipation for this game and a gnawing disappointment at the grim march of this series and indeed the entire RPG genre towards BioWare-esque drudgery.

That was strange
I know what might happen there, but I had no idea that such punch could work through boxing gloves
It is either rigged or the hit was indeed strong

Anyway back on topic

I think wanting more or less attributes depends on how you play the game
For those who RP or semi-RP: The more attributes the better
For those who simply play: anything that can be simplified should be simplified
I don't think that these two camps will ever come to agreement

The thing to remember is the history of RPGs. From the days of D&D, RPGs were all about numbers. Remove the numbers and you no longer have an RPG (IMO). Instead you end up with a FPS with swords, magic and arrows.

I'll wait to see if Skyrim has been dumbed down but Bethesda must remember where the roots of Skyrim lie or they will alienate the people who made the Elder Scrolls the success they are.

Edit to say,

If the attributes are missed I don't think it will be long before a mod replaces them. If only just to look at. I love a screen full of numbers

So... wait... playing Vampire Masquerade which has checks to show you specific dialog means RP? And the people don't "simply play"?

Yes it is. One of the Speech perks is intimidate, and it is based on your speech level and your character level.
Muscle shouldn't be the only intimidating factor. What about a really powerful exotic mage, or a thief with a blind cursed eye that invokes fear amongst the superstitious? So now mages and thieves need to level strength in order to be intimidating.

So the attributes system is as flawed as any system.

Nope falls under Charisma and is addressed in gaming systems like D&D to mention one.

Where Charisma is a percived presence, whether it is malignant or benign.

I still think D&D has one of the best attribute systems, physical (Strength[power, force], Dexterity[adroitness, speed], Constitution[health and endurance]), mental (Intelligence[rationale, anolysis], Wisdom[Instinct, perception]) and a mix of both Charisma which is physical and mental projected appearance.

The point I was making is not that strength is redundant, it is that strength does not equal damage. At most, it is a miniscule factor.


Absolutely untrue. The oomph comes from speed, precision, and technique, which are much more reliably present in men with very high stamina than men who look like they're photoshopped. Also, again, the issue is that a man with more stamina can hit harder because his body works more efficiently. Heavy slabs of muscle are actually detrimental, once you reach a certain point.


Thank you for defining these things. Now the unenlightened are informed.


We're not talking about the ability to lift weights - we're talking about the ability to do damage, hit harder. The difference is fundamental and completely unrelated to everything you are saying.

I don't remember Betrayal at Krondor having attributes like strength, dexterity and intelligence. In fact, BoK system is similar to Elder Scrolls. They are skill based. The more you use a skill, the more it increases. It didn't stop it from being a nice RPG game.

Attributes are a legacy of the past when games weren't that complicated with skills like what we have now. Strength = damage. Dexterity = accuracy. Intelligence = magic. They are now starting to look really outdated. A good example would be in WoW. A tank will never need to use agility, intellect and spirit. A caster will never use strength, agility and stamina. Each class only really uses 2 stats.

Please reread what I wrote and come back. I did not state SINGLE factor to intimidate.
Perks are boolean whereas attributes are a measurement. Without the perk you have only the clvl. An attribute is persistent and can be used for proper reactions through the whole game.
Again, I am talking about RP, reactions from/to NPCs. Stop being so focused on ONLY combat. Otherwise, as stated, we can reduce the amount of characteristics even further.

If it were rigged, Bob Sapp would have won. And the problem was that the punch fractured Sapp's orbital socket - quite literally, broke his face. And the punch "worked" because it was simply delivered with explosive speed and technique to a concentrated area. Speed, technique, precision.

I'm not sure I completely understood question, yet I'll try to answer.
By RP I mean peoples who make journals, plan character development according to some template they made (or thought that it was cool), etc.
Those who simply play game are semi-casuals by my standards, who simply want to smash some dragon head with biggest hammer they can get, without thinking about more nerdy ways to play the game

P.S. And yes I consider true RPers as "nerds of the nerds"

P.P.S. Personally I consider myself semi-RPer

But in Elder Scrolls, Personality is often associated with making people like you by having a higher disposition. If you have high personality, bandits won't attack you because they like you, not because you are so scary they go "Whoa don't hurt me dude".
Personality is also associated with persuasion more than intimidation.

So the only option to intimidate people is strength.

And the main goal of my post is to show that whatever attributes can do, perks can also do. Neither system is perfect, but perks do seem better than attributes.

What a load of rubbish, if that were true then tractors, trucks or any other heavy machinery wouldn't exist because people could train in the right technique to do the work. Speed, precision, and technique certainly factor in but a strong person can innately hit harder than a weak person with no training and lots of stamina. I'd love to see a Kenyan marathon runner with a huge Stamina go up against a boxer like Mike Tyson, I know who I'd put money on. Even if they were just hitting their own punching bag.


How so? I've already shown that Strength is the force, the "oomph". The force is the "hit harder" part that you seem to be totally missing. It's a branch of demonstratable science called Physics.

With your logic a 45 kilogram child that has trained for 5 years to hit a bag can hit harder than a man that is 120 kilos and has the strength to lift 180kilos but has only trained for 2 years.

wth does this have to do with consoles?