Yeah I know I'm not just trying to point fingers, it just made me wary, since I'm doing the port and all.

In any case I'll probably just do the Nexus only and hope people don't cross post it anywhere.

I cannot use the Workshop for my mod, because I require an esm file to overcome the Navmesh bug. Works perfect on Nexus though!

.

First the EULA: I'm fine with agreeing to these terms for gamesas, that's okay, and makes sure I can't make money of their work (e.g. when I try to sell my mod, they have the right to give it a way for free.) But Steam? Steam is the DRM provider and the host of mod uploading site. I won't give Macrovision these rights, neither would I grant them to the Nexus.

Second: Steam workshop attracts a kind of users that are too much trouble for me to look after. Yes, that may be arrogant and elitist, but frankly, knowing how to use the Windows explorer is a basic prerequisite for modding (yes, by installing various mods, mod-users are actually modding their game) If you can't figure out how to download and install a mod on the Nexus, you shouldn't be modifying your game at all.

Third: Paranoia. I don't like social networks, I don't like the idea of cross-linked internet services, I don't like tailor-cut advertising, I don't like Steam being able to keep track of what games I play when and how long and which options I chose, I don't like Steam linking the information of when and how I play what games with the mods I make.

This. Bethesda can have all the rights to my work that they want (Hyperbole, don't get carried away with that one), but I dont want anyone else near my stuff. BGS made the game I'm modding, and they made my modding possible, but other people weren't involved, and they can stay that way.

I also agree that if you cannot install a mod with the raw files, you should not mod. Or at least, don't flip out an get mad at mod authors when you break your game. Also, don't get mad if an author doesnt show up to help you get their mod functioning. While mod authors should obviously try their best to help everyone, some of us just cant. My latest New Vegas mod gets on average 100 downloads a day. If even 10% of those people ask for help, I can't be out there helping 10 specific people every single day. Not to mention that that's barely any. Some mods get 10's of thousands of downloads a day. So if the author gets a bit overwhelmed, dont blame them. We're here to provide you guys with content and have fun.

Again, yup. Though I don't have it to your extent, I'm cautious about how much I let companies pry.

I may or may not upload my current project to the workshop. I wont be done for 6 months, so I'll have to see it's current status at that point, but I may very well not. It depends.

I did upload my first mod and tried to use the workshop the day of my first published mod for Skyrim. I was attracted to the "one click" nature and the possibility that Bethesda "might" use it as well to survey ideas for their next game and I am all for them "borrowing" my ideas for their next game so I will LIKE their next game all the more.

I took it down (from the workshop) a week latter in part because I was forced to only use BSA and because it would by pass my clean install instructions to the players by the very nature of the one click process.

I am not a big fan of steam in the first place, it has diverted their attentions from what they should be doing... cough... finishing...cough .half life..cough..

Just going to interject that wherever it says a "Valve Game" it does not say a "Steam Game." The only other game on the Workshop is TF2. That's what workshop started with. I believe that "Valve Game" does not include Skyrim. However, I could be wrong.

My reasons for not publishing to Steam are

• My work is presumably "offensive" within the meaning of Bethesda guidelines (though my approach to diversity and erotic themes would not be very remarkable on film or TV)
  
• Steam's intrusive PC client and disregard for modders' IP seem to be just as bad as GMOD
  
• The way things are going, Steam's DRM role will soon give them the power to ban us from gaming altogether (except perhaps EA and indie)

If Valve / Bethesda wanted to fix this, I'd suggest

• Work with the ESRB (which the games industry controls) to bring ratings in line with other forms of entertainment
  
• Change Steam Workshop to permit 18+ mods (even for teen games) with appropriate controls
  
• Provide a thin-client version of Steam
  
• Work with a respected panel of modders to agree clearer terms (or a code of conduct)
  
• Establish an independent appeal tribunal (with peer credibility) and change the rules to ensure that bans from any site are subject to due process and transparency

This of course requires a fundamental change of mindset on both sides, from the current adversarial approach, to partnership.

Is it worth it?

Well, Bethesda has to make a hard-nosed commercial judgement about the business case for modding.

Really. I don't want them to do us any favours.

If, on balance, modders are an asset to Bethesda, then they should treat us as such.

Or, if Bethesda figures that the more independent modders who don't contribute to Steam right now are acceptable collateral damage, then fine, we'll take our mods elsewhere.

The question I have is does Bethesda also agree to this EULA from Valve -- so that Valve is also given the same License rights to all of their IP that is uploaded to the Workshop ?? -- and if not then why is it acceptable to make modders do so if they are not willing to do the same ? (esp. since they are the ones that entered into this relationship in the first place and not the modders )

That's another interesting point. What exactly *is* offensive? Would Haelga of Riften be offensive if she were added by a mod? May we add a vanilla statue of Dibella to our mods? What about similar statues of bare-chested people of either gender? Roman or greek style all-nvde statues of either gender? What about paintings? Van Gogh? Renoir? Rubens? When does it get offensive? Kama Sutra?

My reasons are simple and have already been listed in this thread... The EULA.


You can pry my mod from my cold dead hard drive.



(well it helps if I finish it first. heh)

When Bethesda says it does.

One reason I have not put anything thre is that seems there is no way to add optional files, like variations on the main files and I have a lot of those usually ...

Bethesda or Valve?

Bethesda, since it's their policy that's being enforced. I don't think Valve much cares one way or the other.

That's the process, sure, but is it ethical?

Some people seem to think that our emerging virtual world should be an absolute dictatorship, ruled by companies.

I beg to disagree. Imperfect though our democracies may be, ultimately we make the rules. Companies ignore that at their peril.

So you're saying that the company shouldn't even be able to say which content they will and wont host for their game, on their servers? You can still make any mod (As long as it's legal) and host it on almost all of the other hosting sites. I think they have every right to control what can and can't be uploaded to the workshop. It's their hosting service, it's their choice. Now, if they start telling Darkone not to allow certain kinds of mods on the Nexus, then we have a problem. But this way it's their servers, their service, their selection.

Companies rightly have degrees of freedom, of course, but in practice they are limited by law and by public opinion.

For example, I doubt whether any company could get away with rules that overtly discriminated on grounds of race, gender, orientation etc.

The hard-won freedom from censorship that we have achieved in literature and visual media should not be lightly surrendered to a games company, in my humble opinion.

Venturing into the political... but....

I happen to believe in another aspect of our system that focuses on the rights of property owners. It's Bethesda's server, Bethesda's game, Bethesda's CK. Censorship does not apply here.

Mob rule is no way to run a country, and commandeering someone else's property is no way to support a truly free system.

Yeah the EULA does state that it is for Valve Games, but Steam is owned by Valve... does anyone know though? This is a really good point.

Does Bethesda agree to this EULA and allow for it to be spread to our works? Or are Bethesda derivative works (our mods), exempt from this because Bethesda has its own EULA?

I would love to hear from the higher ups on this.

If Skyrim modders are exempt from this rule in the EULA, (due to the whole Valve game thing) then many people who weren't going to use the Workshop because of the EULA might change their minds.

I can understand why part of this language might appear objectionable.

However, as Skyrim mods are also derivative works, the underlying rights are already held by Bethesda. Anyone distributing these mods would certainly want to include a grant of rights to cover whatever additional intellectual property is contributed by the mod author.

Also, this mirrors the EULA language that was already in the CS, the GECK and the http://store.steampowered.com/eula/eula_202480.



I imagine there is already language in Valve's agreement with Bethesda which includes a license to distribute mods, but Valve is being cautious to ensure they have 100% of the rights they need in order to turn around and license them to end users. I would bet that the Steam Workshop EULA was carefully vetted by both companies.

As for the right to modify or create further derivative works incorporating part or all of the mod, who knows where this might be important in the future - for example, there might be an update to the game or to the CK that requires all the mods on the workshop to be patched as well, or perhaps someone's mod might end up in a future DLC, or even adapted into a stand-alone game. There are a few great games that started out as mods.

I'm still a little confused about what you're saying in the end though.

When we upload to the Steam workshop does Valve gain those rights in the same way Bethesda does when we make something with the CK? Or is Valve negated from it?

Like it's not really a big deal if Beth is the holding party.... it's part of what happens when you make a mod with the CK, it was the same with Oblivion.
But Valve is just hosting my mod, I dont want to give away rights to my mod hoster just by hosting it there...

It's like uploading a website with a hosting company and after I upload my site: they own it all of a sudden, and have full control over my website and its contents, and can tell me how it should be used.

I'm really not okay with that.

There are certain underlying rights in your mod that you as an end user do not have the right to grant, and Valve can only have licensed those rights directly from Bethesda. So I would not worry about Valve going off and using your mod to make their own Skyrim spin-off game without Bethesda's permission, etc.

In other words, Valve may have acquired the extent of your right to sublicense the mod, but as Bethesda holds the underlying rights, they still need Bethesda's permission to exploit the sublicensing rights.

From the CK EULA:

I imagine both companies considered carefully and determined it was important to include the grant of rights language in both EULAs. For example, what if you include files in your Steam Workshop upload that are not generated from the CK, or if they update the Steam Workshop to incorporate utilities, like mod sorting tools, etc.? It may also be the case that Valve's agreement with Bethesda incorporates a perpetual license for Bethesda to "use, reproduce, modify, adapt, perform, display, distribute" etc. any mod files uploaded to the workshop.

Just to understand if I make a weapon with my own tools and I just use the CK to put it ingame to be used while playing skyrim , I do loose any right on my object created and they could even incorporate the thing in some kind of dlc of their own or sell or reuse parts or whateverelse?

That's a good question.

I would suggest if you have some art assets that you want to commercialize in the future or use for creating your own game, etc., it is probably best not to use them in a mod.

The EULA language related to licensing intellectual property rights in mod materials back to Bethesda has been in their previous toolset EULAs as well. I have no idea about the likelihood of your weapon actually ending up in some new official Skyrim DLC, etc., but you are granting them the right to do so.