I don't care so much about copyright, but they are still getting the bugs worked out. For three weeks Acquisitive Soul Gems was broken on Steam without me knowing it, until I found out about the BSA business that wasn't fixed until 1.4. So while I thought it was just people with conflicting mods that it was failing for, because it worked fine when I tested it and no one on Nexus had any problems, in fact my mod was broken for anyone who tried to use it with Steam Workshop. So I got to look like a bit of a [censored], and a lot of people unsubscribed from what should have been a working thing. And it took them too long to issue the fix as well. So now I don't want to upload anything to Steam Workshop. That's why not.

Three months delay getting the thing out, one month of that in beta testing, and they still missed a hole in the system so big you could drive a truck through it. Very disappointing.

Are you going to pay a lawyer to fight them in court over this? If not, it is the law for all practical purposes.

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I think this might miss the point, somewhat. For a company to make a gaff like this doesn't say much about their potential for longevity. For a company to knowingly make a "gaff" like this doesn't say good things about their trustworthiness. Either way, it clearly expresses a willingness to attempt to impose illegal contract conditions which is a blatant display of disrespect for "local law" and an open rejection of democratic principles. All of this speaks to worthiness of trust, or lack thereof.
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I agree, money does influence behaviour but I think it is the system of monetary acquisition which determines whether that influence is good, bad or indifferent. If authors could not earn money from writing, then the masterpieces of contemporary authors like Peter F. Hamilton and Kevin J. Anderson may have, in all likelihood, never seen the light of day - to say nothing of other gifted authors like Jack du Brul, & R.A. Salvatore. With better financial support emanating from his literary efforts, it is entirely possible that J. R. R.Tolkien might have churned out several more trilogies in his lifetime. However, with no money behind an activity, nobody can afford to take it seriously.
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When people compete over money, on the other hand, it may be good for price but the effect on quality and community is truly atrocious. You're right, people tend to withhold support from one-another when operating under the assumption that someone-else getting an edge over them cuts into their market share. Although this is characteristic of a free market economy, the magic of the niche market economy resides in a focus on serving the needs of a given niche (which includes pricing considerations). This needs-based focus renders price and market-share competition redundant along with all of its nasty side effects. In a similar vein, the open source styled donation system also eliminates this sort of counter-productive price and market-share competition but its weakness is that, in reality, far too few people are prepared to put their money (even their spare change) where their mouth is - at least, that is what I have observed in other fields. Consequently, very few open source projects are driven home to full completion of specification.
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However, I am very curious to see how the donation system fares in the modding community.
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In light of my rather anecdotal experience of how well donation-for-content systems perform, I tend to think that an economic system reminiscent of the novelist's economy would be beneficial to both the quality and quantity of mods available. Because such economies depend heavily on a complete absence of any form of plagiarism, the key to making something like this work is not to discourage the making of money but to discourage the tendency of some people to plagiarise the work of others. The economic ethic of the niche market is very simple:
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Don't even bother make a cheaper widget until you can make it a spectacularly better widget.
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However, until companies other than Bethesda begin to develop computer-based RPGs seriously, then it is really up to Bethesda to choose whether or not they are going to invest their own effort to foster such a new niche-market economy. This would require a sound understanding of what makes a plug-in merchantable in the first place. If Steam freely feed Bethesda with information concerning which mods actually get donations, then it makes the whole open-source styled donation system a very good first step in the process of establishing a viable niche market economy serving the RPG community.
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The next step, once the concept of plug-in merchantability is accurately defined, would be for Bethesda to set up a publishing house where, using royalty rates and pricing for officially endorsed plug-ins, as agreed on with the modding community, they could profit directly from the better plug-ins and maintain great relations with the modding community at the same time. The fact that some money would actually find its way back to modders who completed good projects would encourage modding which, in turn, would fuel sales and profits for Bethesda as the game gets taken into new market niches by modders who inject new concepts into the game. As to the "problem" of managing hundreds of thousands of accounts, in this day and age, it's a non-issue. Setting up an unsupervised automated split-payment system is dead easy. You simply sell the product in two parts; one via the author's account and the other via the publisher's account. The esp/esm and bsa system is ideal for this because an officially endorsed plug-in could be served with PayPal or Amazon handling the merchant service for the esp/esm file on behalf of the modder and the bsa file, as a separate transaction, on behalf of Bethesda Publishing. It is worth noting that either of these merchant-service companies might be quite happy to handle any payment splitting themselves, given the large turnover and high potential for solid transaction fee returns.
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There is, of course, no obligation on Bethesda to make all this effort, but if they don't someone else eventually will - and probably won't do half as good a job in the process - maybe serving up a vastly inferior game engine in the process. The failure to comprehend the role of people who develop material to tun on a given platform, and their command of the market for that platform, is precisely how early Apple/Macintosh architecture wound up being totally trounced (in the marketplace) by vastly inferior IBM architecture. And, as history shows us time and again, that's just how the cookie crumbles.
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[EDIT]Fixing my truly atrocious spelling & grammatical gaffs[/EDIT]

Then practically speaking, you have nothing to worry about. This insane paranoia I see from people about OMG MONEY is just plain crazy.

I agree. Is Beth or Valve going to steal your mod and sell it for moneys? No. Could they? Yes. Do they need to? No.

When a company makes 700 million in sales on a game, they don't need to scam their community to make an extra million dollars. The reward is nowhere remotely close to the risk.

Think about it people. They will not take your work. It won't happen.

So are you arguing that money doesn't change behaviour? If so, can you cite any scientific evidence for that assertion?

Or do you imagine that donations are somehow a different kind of money from sales?

Are you not aware that other modding communities have almost been torn apart by the mere hint of money and commercial dogmatism?

That's where the very real fear comes from.


Sorry, you've lost the plot there. The point I was making was about how donations will change the modding community, which has nothing to do with whether companies steal our work or not.

Yep. But then again, that's your opinion. They are valve's servers, and as Alex said, the have the right to cull content on their servers. If you don't like it, well... I guess that contributes to the topic of the thread... that's your reason for not posting to the workshop, and that right is yours. The right to put your blood (hopefully not), sweat, tears, and hardwork where you want to.

No, but I could just as easily ask for scientific evidence of your own assertion, which I doubt exists. You have nothing but anecdotal evidence of what happened in a few other communities. Again, there's no commercial anything being put forth here. Some folks have solicited voluntary donations in some places. Nexus is simply responding to a new demand from users who would like to do that there without running afoul of their ToS.

Gut feeling here, but I'm betting they were torn apart by the very kind of paranoid assertions you're making here. That somehow the mere possibility of someone donating money is all it'll take for us all to descend into caveman like states.

It's not a very real fear. It's a very real paranoia that has no basis. Other than people who insist it's bad and insist on generating arguments over it.

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http://www.gamesas.com/user/176330-arthmoor/, I'm afraid that I have to agree with you here. Money is neither good nor evil and it certainly isn't the "root of all evil". That which can be good or evil is how we go about acquiring this money...
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and status
and knowledge
and love
and skills
and integrity
and influence
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All of these emotional commodities are also other forms of currency and someone who cannot be bribed with money may, for instance, be very easily corrupted by a proposition in which doing your will serves the "greater good" (be that "the people", "the many", "the cause", "the gods", etc.) thereby boosting the individual's self-perceived integrity in payment for the favor.
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The ultimate question of what does, or does not, harm the people of the community (i.e. "good" & "evil") simply boils down to how all these things are pursued and whether people are willing to make equal room and opportunity for others to engage in their own pursuits. In this context, donations are the highest form of monetary goodwill and, in this day and age, this kind of goodwill is quite rare. In a community, such as this one, which already has a head start in the area of goodwill, perhaps this might be the beginning of something wonderful....

Well, just for starters, there's this study in http://www.sciencemag.org/content/314/5802/1154.abstract, but I dare say that's an imaginary publication dreamed up by paranoids.

The publication may not be, but anyone who actually swallows that crap enough to publish something posing as a serious experiment is certainly paranoid.

No fan of Valve here, but I think your math there might be off. Getting 25% of Adjusted Gross Revenue per "A" is correct as you have it, but you need to change "B" & "C". You have that AGR = your 25%, minus Applicable Adjustments. This isn't so. AGR = 100% (GR), minus Applicable Adjustments. It works out differently.

Let's say a total of 5 bucks is thrown to Valve for a mod, but applicable adjustments total to a single dollar. Here you get one dollar and Valve gets three. The adjustments are taken out of the total pie, not just your slice. Valve could never get 100% according to the EULA piece as you have quoted it there.

This is not meant to say anything about any other aspect of your argument, or any other argument here. Just the bad math/logic made my brain itch...

I care little about the overall discussion. I will simply state that for my own reasons, I have no plans to upload any mods to Steam Workshop, or to ever profit from ES mods in any way. In fact, I mean not to. Nexus and TESA are better options, IMHO.

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The paper in question would seem somewhat questionable. Based on the abstract:
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• It fails to account for variation in temperament and...
  
• It fails to account for the different kinds of currency.

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Leaving such important constraints out of an abstract is no different to declaring that, for example, all animals in your study were found to be cold-blooded - but neglecting to mention, in your abstract or your title, that your study was confined to amphibians.
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I would also point out that nobody here is arguing that opportunity to make a living doesn't affect people. Rather, it's the nature of that effect which is being argued. If, in the current example, modders have the opportunity to be tipped for producing a high quality mod, how do you suggest that this will effect the behavior of modders? Is it not plausible that, in such an environment, modders will be inclined to put a bit more effort into finishing plug-ins properly and not raising expectations beyond what they can deliver?

If, for the sake of a related example, forum contributors could get donations or tips for solving problems - then how do you think the opportunity to earn a few tips will affect their behavior on these forums? Is it not plausible that some people will go to greater lengths to solve problems for which there is no known solution?
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Now, with respect to either of these two examples, do you really believe that anyone will get enough tips or donations to become financially independent and retire?
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In yet another aspect of the problem overlooked by http://www.sciencemag.org/content/314/5802/1154.abstract: -given that people mod because making, sharing and using plug-ins is what they love to do- would financial independence interfere with their contributions to the modding community or, would it interfere with other activities they'd gladly give up so they could spend the time modding?

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I concur with your assessment of the text quoted, but 25%? That sounds like a lot to me. Are you sure that's right? I hear the usual deal for authors is between 5% and 15% - at least with honest publishers (i.e. the ones who actually pay the author [something]). [For anything which makes it into DLC or onto DVD, 25% sounds very generous to me].
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I haven't really looked into this, and these quotes from Valve's EULA seem to swing from one extreme to another. Would this be in the event of the mod making it into the the official DLC? Or could [it] apply to those donations that some are discussing?
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{edit]EDITS in this colour [and square brackets][/edit]

Haha... what a turn this discussion is taking...

Well I don't really know if money is the root of all evil, but it certainly is the root of the modern times (and their pragmatism, RealmEleven). So it's the root of all things we try to flee from when playing Elder Scrolls games or diving into any other romanticism, of which Elder Scrolls is surely a part.
But it may be an interesting question if that donating thing is pointing a way out of the "Verdinglichung" which affects all things that are no things at all, but nevertheless got touched by Midas... but being no optimist and no pragmatist at all, I do not believe in this. Money corrupts, and it corrupts more than anything that has the power to corrupt. But that doesn't mean, that it corrupts necessarily. There may the individual that is very little affected by this corruption: the heroic loner standing above all modern materialism and communic herd mentality, only interested in the power to reach the inner divine spark of individual expression. Such kind of expression would resist the Midas Touch, although there would be great interest in touching it - only for the sake of destroying it, because such a "Dovahkiin" would be mostly dangerous for the great materialistic dragon devouring the world and all beauty...

So eventually: yes, money is the root of all evil... (of course only romantically and non pragmatically speaking...)

Well the phrase is actually "The love of money is the root of all evil." Not simply "money is the root of all evil." That distinction is incredibly important here. I know people who have plenty of money but are perfectly fine. They don't dwell on it. I also know people who have money and obsess over nothing but getting more of it, and these people are mean and nasty. So it's by no means an absolute given that money entering into things will turn everyone into Scrooge.

Well do you then know the guys these people work for and surely have more plenty of money? If someone's not mean and nasty, that doesn't mean he's fine. People can very well contribute to "mean" and "nasty" things, without being "mean" and "nasty" themselves. I would even claim that it's a crucial precondition to be integrated into modern society as the working part to not be mean and nasty but guilt conscious (morally) referring to that society. And if one wants be mean and nasty, go play Skyrim. At times I would wish there were more people being mean and nasty (towards modernism at least)...

I've read through the first page of this thread, and it's clear that Steam, Valve, whatever they call themselves now, in the future, in the past, in parallel universes and in whatever language, has hired a lot of legal muscle for what appears to be an innocent venture. It's bad enough with credit card companies and their perpetual fine-print adjustments under the friendly, "Dear valued customer: We are changing YOUR part of OUR agreement." I don't like it, no sir. No one bit

I'd prefer a contract like that in the Marx Bros. film, "A Night At the Opera":

Fiorello: Hey, wait, wait. What does this say here, this thing here?
Driftwood: Oh, that? Oh, that's the usual clause that's in every contract. That just says, uh, it says, uh, if any of the parties participating in this contract are shown not to be in their right mind, the entire agreement is automatically nullified.
Fiorello: Well, I don't know...
Driftwood: It's all right. That's, that's in every contract. That's, that's what they call a sanity clause.
Fiorello: Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! You can't fool me. There ain't no http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus!

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http://www.gamesas.com/user/176330-arthmoor/, it appears to me that the "incorrect" version of the idea is what happens to be influencing some of the points raised in this discussion. What sent the discussion off the rails was when folk started dodging the facts by exchanging little slights here and there (even if nobody was looking). This kind of behavior is political, as opposed to rational, and ideas are often dolled up to look like other, similar-sounding and widely accepted ideas when discourse is politicized. The use of absolute terms, little exaggerations here and there, and persistent use of fallacious logic are all pretty much diagnostic of preset agendas and an unwillingness to consider other perspectives - and I think that is the reality of political behavior in a nutshell. The clever thing about fallacious logic is that it is very tempting to respond in kind because it flows and, in a literary sense, it seems to be a logical way to respond. However, this only allows the goal of the fallacy to be attained; which is the evasion of a specific and devastating fact. Thus, the key to overcoming the politicization of a discussion is to refrain from the natural mirroring of behavior so that one may discern which fact is being evaded and then drive that fact home by focusing upon it and drawing the discussion back to that fact every time fallacious logic is used to draw attention away from it.
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I think http://www.gamesas.com/user/788297-arcedwan/ has a point about a lot of mean and nasty stuff not being overtly mean and nasty. Take passive aggression for example. It is always possible to find ways to cause just as much harm without violating specific codes of ethics or breaking laws. This is the core principle behind passive resistance and it is the great flaw concealed in every code of ethics. I am led to conclude that the only the question pertaining to right and wrong is whether we make the liberty of others to live equal to the liberty we take for ourselves to live and I tend to think that, irrespective of variations in temperament and perception, this is the objective which every individual conscience revolves around.
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And http://www.gamesas.com/user/788297-arcedwan/, I really relate to your point on romanticism. It's probably what a lot of folk are talking about when they use the term, "immersion". However, while playing the game revolves around the fantasy, making the plug-ins for the game is very much rooted in reality. There are limited hours in the day and most of the time a person has is monopolized by activities which revolve around earning a living. Apparently, "the devil finds work for idle hands"; never mind the fact that this idea come from the most idle of classes as a way of making sure that the many would work hard so that the few could live at ease. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it Nietzsche who pointed out that one man's "devil" is another man's "god"? Whoever said this, it seems strangely relevant to the tussles over time, money and other commodities by the different castes of many civilizations.
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In any case, the limiting factor is time and a full bodied plug-in will take even a particularly talented individual at least twelve months to develop, and therein lies a major obstacle to the availability of good, quality plug-ins.

I would actually like to point something out about this statement. This about it guys, if you are worried about being farely compensated: Skyrim sold like 10 million copies. About 3mill were on PC. So, lets say your mod is made into a DLC by Beth, and you are to get 25%. Lets say only 2/3 of people buy it, though it would probably be more. You get 25% of 2 million sales. Now let's say that it costs 3$ for the DLC you made. YOu get 25% of 6 million dollars. That's 1.5 million. Now, account for my numbers maybe being off. Hell, lets say I made a SERIOUS error there, and you only get 500k. Omg, you made 500k! Those bastards at Valve and Beth stole all your money! Oh and that's only counting PC players. Not even console.

If you guys are worried about fair compensation, I think you should think about the numbers and consider that you are one person, and Valve+Beth are two companies with hundreds of employee's. So really you're getting an epic deal.

Not that I think mods should be sold or turned into DLC. Not that I don't. I just wanted to make that point.

If it isn't his quote, it's nevertheless the quintessence of much of his thoughts.


Romanticism was always all about immersion, that's true:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Caspar_David_Friedrich_032.jpg

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/5205/skyrimenvironment1024x7.jpg


I think time isn't that relevant. It's all about will. If the will is powerful enough, then time becomes completly irrelevant. Especially if that will is more powerful than the will of the ones who want to break your will. Earning a living (or just living) isn't that hard and time consuming if you are able to free yourself of the conventions which the modern industrial world trys to impose upon you. It's all about power and will; time (money, haha...) is for mortals...

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With sufficient focus on an objective, a powerful will can circumvent any obstacle; taking into consideration the implications of something Sun Tzu (Art of War, 8:3) suggested,
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Whereas such things pose obstacles, gravity dictates that everything fluid flows around these obstacles unto its physical destination. Perhaps it is not enough to have a strong or powerful will in that, to be effective, the will must have focus; preferably on the ultimate objective. Otherwise we may find ourselves willfully lost in a forest of milestones; rebels without causes; travelers without destinations; ironies forever lost in a seething ocean of unawareness.
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So, to wit,
we might admit
that will goes hand in hand with wit!

That "physical" destination of all flowing is not so much of a problem when it's not confused with the downward slope of mortal time, (Bach's) music tells us that in the purest sense. I think the focus cannot be changed willingly and eventually it's the obstacles that affect and hinder the flow. If the last is the case, they have to and eventually will be teared down by a strong enough will. From my experience as a musician, the focus grows strong on such obstacles and the greatest beauty arises from overcoming seemingly hopeless situations - if the will is strong enough to follow the flow to its final destination without letting the obstacle convince him of the identity of that flow with the already mentioned downward slope of mortal time...

...but what's that all got to do with steam and ridiculous eulas?

The world is a big place, even states within the U.S. have totally different (mis)conceptions of law and how it is applied. (I can give many applicable examples of where you are wrong.) But the easiest example is that by uploading to Steam, you are giving them a huge leg up. And the cost -- you vs. Valve. And the time -- may take many long years (of course a year is a year, what is a long year? A different year being a leap year, and yes a leap year is longer; but is it really a long year).

My main complaint was/is that I cannot modify the mod without the modification being replaced. You have no option of just downloading the mod. I tried 5 mods from Steam. Steam gave them different names, moved them around the load order, which messed up my save games, downloaded files with 0kb (so that means a file name only -- do I really want to subscribe to a file name? it doesn't play well and you cannot load it into the CK). And then when I unsubscribed the 5, I get a continous error message that doesn't apply. So I deleted the 5. I still get the error message and they say it's a Bethesda bug. I think that Bethesda going with Steam was bad for its users and bad for the integrity of Bethesda.

BTW, just hanging out being a little obnoxious, waiting for Steam to update my program, or the 3-4 days wait for them to get back to me to tell me what I have to do to get my program updated -- patch downloaded.

Steam doesn't do all that. The Skyrim Launcher written by Bethesda does. If it doesn't work well, it's Bethesda who is to blame.