Whoa hello there. You say hyperbole arguments are the worst kind of arguments yet I see hyperbole all over this quote. I didn't say writers consciously choose to use tropes. They are familiar, as you said, ingrained in our ability to storytell. It is because of those familiarities that people can identify and understand a story. If ES vampires did not feed on people, biting them, and were characterized as undead, it would be hard for people to accept them as vampires. If the original Volkihar vampires did not have these things, they would more be characterized as demons or spirits than vampires. There are certain characteristics, certain tropes, that must remain in order for people to acknowledge the story. So yes, tropes are okay. Cliches are okay. I did not say all were okay or that they should be used extensively, but they must exist in some form for familiarity. So many great stories take cliches are twist them just enough for us to go, "I recognize that but at the same time I don't." New ideas are non-existent. Everything is built off of something.
Saying that self-consciousness and tendency to lie are associated with teens is completely false. Who associated those together? You admit that they aren't exclusive but these are aspects of human psychology that never go away, even growing into old age, save for a few notable exceptions. Everyone is self-conscious about something, whether it's their social life, physical appearance, mental capability, economic status, etc. You name it, someone worries over it. It's NOT associated with just teens. It's associated with being a human being. It's folly to think that these characteristics are the domain of teenagers only. My doctor, at 58 years of age, still suffers from Imposter Syndrome, a psychological disorder where people feel they have cheated through life and must mask their true selves. It's everywhere. And people lie. Children lie, teens lie, advlts lie, lawyers lie, politicians lie, doctors lie, soldiers lie, everybody lies. And everybody is willing to do so if it means reducing the dissonance they may feel.
And what do you know of Medieval social expectations? Are you saying people weren't concerned at the time of others' opinions? And are you assuming that the ES universe must follow the same culture boundaries? No. It's a fantasy world that merges different aspects of themes, concepts, time periods, foundational systems (like how magic works) to create a new world. Bashing Bethesda for not following our historical precedence, assuming you know the individual thoughts of our ancestors during that time, is the same as bashing Bethesda for following historical precedence.
You know nothing about me, so I don't understand how you can characterize my argument as loyal or fanatic. I was focusing on your particular points. For all you know, I could agree with you but was pointing out weaknesses in your argument. You make assumptions you have no backing for. For future references, I am vocally critical of Bethesda. I feel they do lack originality and when they stumble on something they could really exploit for creativity, they squander the opportunity. I do agree that they should have left the Volkihar as they were. But maybe they lacked the ability to figure out how to bring it to life properly and they did the easier deal. Not my preference but I can understand that. You also need to realize that 200 years between games is a long time for things to change. The Cyrodillic strain could have crossed boundaries, mingled with the Skyrim vampires, and forced an evolutionary change. Expecting things to remain "consistent" for centuries is unrealistic for proper universe development. Things will change and that's part of the discovery.
You misunderstand. I'm not directing that at you, but the argument in general. Whether intended or not, hyperbolizing and saying "EVERYTHING is cliché" makes the statement that it's ok and non-cliché material shouldn't be expected. The "Everything is cliché" can be found all over these forums, written practically on every single wall and in every single corner. That's unproductive; the argument gets nothing done. I also don't understand where I made a hyperbolized argument, because what I meant is answering a criticism with "everything is _____" or "you'd complain about anything." I don't see myself doing that, but since Skyrim's release I see tons of these. "Every game has bugs," "if they'd made it _____ then you'd complain too," "Everything is based on something" etc. Those are not productive arguments because they fail to make an objective argument for the case at hand and instead try to nullify the claim entirely by saying it's an absolute inevitability that can't be addressed or worked on, which simply isn't true.
Furthermore, yes, what you described is what I'm talking about. A cliché
part can be acceptable. There is no general statement that can be made about when this is ok or when it's not. But for example, the lore we had concerning Volkihar still had them svcking blood by biting necks, which is a cliché norm. However, everything else about them was different. They had no association with bats, but with cold, they didn't have flight, but could pass through ice, and they even seperated themselves from the Cyrodiil strain by having no reported way to blend in to society.
For self-conciousness, again, Occam's razor. Who do you expect to constantly double-check their mirror? Teenagers, above all. Thus, if a WRITER makes a self-concious character like Serana who specifically involves YOU in her self-conciousness, that's probably the implication: that she's your teenage vampire "girlfriend" that digs you. Assuming anything else is overcomplicating things, as that is our initial reaction and initial thought. I certainly don't hear her talk about how she doesn't want me to think she's one of "Those girls" and think "this is definitely relevant to the war." No, I think she's a subconcious angsty teen....which she sure as hell is.
What do I know of midevil settings? Again, Occam's razor. If society thinks of a midevil setting, do they think "oh yeah noble girls would totally go out and pick up some hot peasant dudes and reserve the fact that they live in a sweet castle out of fear of being seen in a negative light?" HELL NO. That's very ridiculous, that's very out of place for what comes to mind. Thus, the idea that this situation is appropriate for midevil settings is not only ridiculous, but even if it WERE and the devs somehow knew that, implementing it seems like an odd decision as know one will realize that's a norm. Occam's Razor, all-day every-day: the castle comment was intended to establish Serana as your angsty vampire teen love interest for Dawnguard.
Also
Are you saying people weren't concerned at the time of others' opinions?
No, but I'm sure as hell saying that living in a mother [censored]
castle wasn't considered a bad thing in that time, nor would a peasant find out he's hanging out with the daughter of a noble who lives in a castle and think "screw this, I'm outta here, I hate your type." WTF no, he'd think "SCOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE!!!" and pray this wasn't a dream and that his life will turn around thanks to this.
And I do consider it fanatic to give Bethesda the benefit of the doubt in a case where Occam's Razor so easily applies. I don't understand why anyone would attempt to defend Serana's castle comment for example. It just seems to have the most obvious purpose in the world to me, and her personality supports my argument. Yet dozens of people on this forum continue to make arguments like "you dunno if that was an issue during midevil times or not!!"
Really? I mean it seems pretty obvious it wouldn't be a negative thing...Nor does it seem like something that would effect your decision in the vampires vs. Dawnguard (thus giving her purpose for withholding that fact from you). I sincerely doubt you'd weigh in the options and be like "well the vampires seemed to be powerful and have a good plan and the Dawnguard were kinda meh and had cobwebs in their home, BUT BY GOD THOSE DAMNED VAMPIRES LIVED IN A CASTLE SO I HATE THOSE JERKS AND SHALL BASE MY ENTIRE STANCE IN THE WAR OFF THAT SINGULAR POINT!!"
You, however, should refrain from taking things personal. Yes, I do have a right to try and interpret what you post. If you don't like it or somehow take it personal when I misinterpret what you post or "get the wrong idea" about you through that post, then don't post. I'm not attempting to put words in your mouth, so if I'm wrong, just say it and don't turn it into something personal like I'm attempting to claim I know you or whatever.
You also need to realize that 200 years between games is a long time for things to change. The Cyrodillic strain could have crossed boundaries, mingled with the Skyrim vampires, and forced an evolutionary change. Expecting things to remain "consistent" for centuries is unrealistic for proper universe development. Things will change and that's part of the discovery.
Which to me, is a pointless argument, as Bethesda themselves gets to decide how long the time gap between games is and there really is no logical transition between 200 years (no one can say what'll happen within that time frame), so it absolves them of responsibility to the lore and gives them room to do whatever the hell they want with the argument of "things change over 200 years."
Furthermore, two things. This argument is, again, just so convenient for Bethesda's sake instead of just calling a cigar a cigar. (i.e. saying it's a retcon) People constantly claim things evolve within 200 years. Right, cause the Argonians evolved a ton, right? Oh and the Orcs, they did too. And the NORDS! ESPECIALLY the Nords! They all evolved so much.
No, allegedly only the Volkihar/Cyrodiil vampires and the werewolf/werebears evolved to form something new/kill one off. Seems really convenient for Bethesda, how that argument works...
Secondly, there's this thing called "natural transition" which would be nice. You see, 200 years being a long time is great and all, but say....when you tell me in Oblivion that Redguards hate magic and provide ~2-3 example characters expressing how much Redguards hate magic, then in Skyrim, 200 years later, they regularly utilize it with no problem, with magic NEVER being referred to as a touchy subject for them....that's a pretty crappy transition. If they wanna do that transition, they can easily let the player know and provide a smooth transition. If they have a character in Oblivion say "magic is largely considered wicked in Hammerfell, though over the last 4-5 years I've seen a dramatic spike in Alteration and Destruction practice in Hammerfell. I'm hoping this support and practice will only increase as that would be helpful to my own studies," then ok, suddenly none of us are surprised when lo and behold, Redguards use magic in Skyrim. But when they tell us THE EXACT OPPOSITE and then have Nords suddenly hate magic while Redguards give me a funny look when I ask if they hate magic, then yes, I'm gonna yell "retcon." Sounds more like they thought "hey let's make Nords cliché barbarians" so they killed off any connection to magic they had and swapped their magic relations with that of the Redguards. This changes the personality of the races dramatically and unneccesarily. Whereas Redguards seemed like an honorable warrior-like race that considered magic "cheating" before, suddenly they've kinda lost that. Whereas Nords were sure capable of having stereotypical barbarians, they also weren't uncommon among magic academys and were known to be decent healers.
If Bethesda wants to change that, fine, but provide NATURAL TRANSITION. Saying "well it's been 200 years," no that's not enough. That's an excuse we can feed
ourselves to make sense of the change, yes, but that doesn't excuse them. It's still a really [censored] writing technique to NOT provide natural transition.
Again, I just wish people would stop trying to make sense of things or stop trying to make excuses on behalf of Bethesda. If you want excuses for your roleplay gameworld to make sense, that's fine, go for it, but do NOT be afraid to criticize Bethesda for what's bad writing. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and I'm pretty damn sure the Volkihar retcon is just that: a retcon. NOT a deep, intriguing story about a behind-the-scenes vampire clan war that led to evolution of vampires into a new, stronger vampire lord.
» Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:00 pm 
