Opening slide/cart-ride/linear walk-through/follow me!/go to X/decline invite and go elsewhere/join this faction/ignore faction quests/kill everyone in town bar essentials/get bored of killing/pick every flower from Riften to Solitude/Join Imperials/become baffled as to why Ulfric calls your the Dragonborn when your involvement in the main quest ended when you left Helgen

Ahh yes, the defining characteristics of open-world gameplay.

The game development direction is not ours to define, let the market make the call. A game company will do everything to fit the majority taste for profit and will not carry the outdated game making principle to feed the hardcoe gamers, face it and try to find the joy out of the box. Otherwise don't play it. It is no point to buy a game you don't like it, correct?

If just for example, skyrim become the new RPG standard and created many copycat counterpart, 5 or 10 years later, someone will complain the newly developed RPG is not following the golden principle of Skyrim... who knows.

I not hear to bash anything, im just asking, what makes Skyrims rpg elements more of an rpg than Cod?

Fixed

You may very well be correct. However I believe there are certain objective truths that exist, which popular opinion cannot change. In the same way that once upon a time everyone thought the Earth was flat and that the sun revolved around our planet, a 'mistake' of the masses (or the intelligentsia which then informed the masses) does not constitute a change in reality.

I am aware you weren't, I was just saying that it had already been shot down

I don't mean to nitpick, but I don't have the dexterity to type out all of the linear-paths included in Skyrim. You just about nailed all of the non-linear things to do with eight sentences. It speaks for itself, really.

Opinion =\= fact

My first post in this thread explains that my first TES was meant to be Morrowind, but it didn't happen. However, I am now playing Morrowind along side Skyrim and I'm siding with Skyrim at the moment. So far, I'm not impressed with Morrowind. It took me hours just to get 10 experience points to level up to level 2 and even rats were giving me a challenge that required me to keep leaving the area so I could heal up and go back to carry on taking them out.

I've never seen a thread this long. Do the Mods know of this?

I was wondering about that. Mods usually close them around 7-8 pages, but I guess they're all taking naps in the Moderators Lounge. Don't tell them though, it's kind of fun being let off the leash to play a bit. Maybe if they do come around and close this, I'll start a part 2 because this seems like a pretty popular thread.

lol!

and, there you have it. in a nutshell, imo.

proving the difference between rpg-character vs player skill -based games.

you don't like the former while i and many others love it and call it a true rpg.

I was replying to someone else's post but okay.

And rats are giving you trouble? I never had any trouble with rats but with those closer to Red mountain. Anyway, I think this is a case of learning to deal with it. Something is simply kicking your ass. You aren't strong enough to tackle this dungeon and it's inhabitants. Try alternative ways to progress or don't try it again until your character is capable enough.

It may sound harsh but I think this is also what makes Morrowind very rewarding as opposed to Skyrim.

How was this argument shot down at all? I think I pretty convincingly justified that any definition of an RPG which you broaden enough to include Skyrim could, with a little creative thinking, be applied to Call of Duty: Black Ops. It's entirely possible I missed or forgot to answer one or two points you or others made refuting this, as there were a lot being thrown around but that doesn't mean I wouldn't have answers to them.

The difference is that where in past games, you "defined" yourself pre-game by tagging some skills and giving them a label, in Skyrim you instead define your class as you play by investing perk points in the skills and perks that would define your character.

As such, Skyrim actually has more of a "class" system, by restricting you more, as you cannot fully perk out every skill, so unlike Morrowind or Oblivion, you actually have to make choices about what skills and abilities will define your character.

Strange, I can't find it now. Oh well, not really important. Or at least not important enough for me to drag on.

I didn't say I didn't like it, I said I wasn't impressed. It acts like a turn based RPG, where it didn't matter so much if your attack didn't actually hit because the sprites barely made contact anyway; but when I'm fighting in real time and they stand two foot from me attack me, I shouldn't miss when I fire an arrow through their face. That doesn't mean I don't like it, it just means that I'll have to get used to stat based combat again. I'll still carry on playing it.

I didn't say I didn't like it, I said I wasn't impressed. It acts like a turn based RPG, where it didn't matter so much if your attack didn't actually hit because the sprites barely made contact anyway; but when I'm fighting in real time and they stand two foot from me attack me, I shouldn't miss when I fire an arrow through their face. That doesn't mean I don't like it, it just means that I'll have to get used to stat based combat again. I'll still carry on playing it.

I like this way of playing more than selecting a class at the beginning; essentially locking you in to that class. The character class and perk system feels more organic and natural to how each individual player plays the game. So if you sneak around a lot naturally your sneak should be higher than, say, a warrior's typically would be. I think Skyrim handles this very intelligently, and by not being able to max out all the perks you really have to know what you want to focus on early in the game. In this way the game does outline a path for you but that path is totally dictated by the player.

Yes, this is the beauty of Skyrim, it is actually fun to start a new character, plan ahead the class build and make it happens.

You say that as though it is a fact, when in actuality, it is not.

I, for one, believe we have more choice than we did before.

Attributes
-I don't see this as a loss at all. Everything that Attributes covered is still in the game, either through the Health / Magicka / Stamina bars (which is really all that most attributes in past games covered anyways), and what's not covered in the 3 Attributes we do have is covered in perks (I.E.: staggering, damage, carry capacity, etc.) The only thing that's not in Skyrim from past games is Speed, and that is actually done in a different way with sprinting, which while not the same is really just a different way of accomplishing the same thing.

Which is ultimately the difference between how Skyrim handles it vs. Morrowind or Oblivion. The results are still there, they haven't been removed, they are just handled differently.

You don't like the way it is handled now - which is a totally valid opinion - but it is a subjective one. Claiming that it is not there is an inaccurate statement of fact.

Birthsigns
-Again, the effects of the Birthsigns are still in the game, they are just now handled differently in the form of Standing Stones. Again, you don't like the new way of doing it compared to the old, but it is a subjective preference, not a factual lack of content or "RPG mechanics"

Classes
-Actually, classes are just the same as before, the only thing missing is the label.

In Morrowind or Oblivion, you pre select a handful of skills that "define" your class, and as such you level up, but there is nothing that limits you to those chosen skills. You are still able to branch out and become any kind of combination of skills you want, including becoming a full fledged master of all. You level up by doing, and there is nothing in game that stops you from branching outside of your "class" except yourself. "Class" was just an arbitrary title that had no impact on the game whatsoever.

Fast forward to Skyrim, where skills level you up by doing, just like past games, and you can focus on any combination of skills you choose, just like past games. The difference is that where in past games, you "defined" yourself pre-game by tagging some skills and giving them a label, in Skyrim you instead define your class as you play by investing perk points in the skills and perks that would define your character.

As such, Skyrim actually has more of a "class" system, by restricting you more, as you cannot fully perk out every skill, so unlike Morrowind or Oblivion, you actually have to make choices about what skills and abilities will define your character.

Meaningful Difference Between Races
-There really isn't any less difference in races than before. If I want to be a magic class, I will likely still play a Breton or High Elf, due to their magical bonuses and extra spells to start off with, if I want to be a warrior class I will still likely play an Orc or a Redguard with their bonuses to combat skills, and Khajiit and Wood Elves still make the best stealth characters because of their bonuses. Every race being able to excell at every style is a trait that is shared in both Morrowind and Oblivion, there is no more "meaningful" difference between the races in past games than there is in Skyrim.

Less Player Choices
-I would argue that we have more choice. When developing your character, you actually have to make decisions on what skills and abilities define your character, because you can't fully perk everything, where as in Morrowind and Oblivion, there was no significant choice save for what skills you wanted to define your arbitrary class tag. But you could still fully branch out and do anything and everything in terms of skills, which meant there was no real choice. Perks in Skyrim allow you to specialize your character in ways never before seen in an Elder Scrolls game. As far as quests go, Morrowind and Oblivion were particularly linear as well, but Skyrim actually offers aspects of choice in its quests, whether it's with Paarthurnax and the Blades, the negotiations between the Stormcloaks and Imperial Legion, how to deal with Saadia, how to figure out the truth behind "A Night To Remember", or any other number of questlines with choice.

Less Diversity
-I would argue this as well. In Morrowind, a very large percentage of NPC's you encountered were Dunmer natives of Morrowind that didn't like outsiders. It is no different than the Nords in Skyrim. While Morrowind NPC's had repetitive recycled text dialogue, each voice acted NPC in Skyrim has some kind of unique story or tale to tell. I am much more invested in the NPC's in Skyrim than I ever was in Morrowind. As far as guilds, I feel there is plenty of diversity, where the College of Winterhold is completely different from the Companions, whereas in Morrowind, they were pretty much the same thing outside of the fact that one group did combat and the other group did magic.

I like this way of playing more than selecting a class at the beginning; essentially locking you in to that class. The character class and perk system feels more organic and natural to how each individual player plays the game. So if you sneak around a lot naturally your sneak should be higher than, say, a warrior's typically would be. I think Skyrim handles this very intelligently, and by not being able to max out all the perks you really have to know what you want to focus on early in the game. In this way the game does outline a path for you but that path is totally dictated by the player.

I can't see how classes are that different. If I want to make a warrior then I will select warrior skills. If I want to create a mage character then I select or create a class with magic skills in them. If my character is not the one I want him to be then I am the blame for creating it. I can't see how classes would get in the way of making things happen like you describe.

Yes, this is the beauty of Skyrim, it is actually fun to start a new character, plan ahead the class build and make it happens.

I agree with your points! The traditional RPG features remained in Skyrim, just handled differently with no labels and all that, they even brought Morrowind's traveling system back with the carriages. I prefer Skyrim's perk system to define your class over Morrowind's and Oblivion's class/custom class options, because if you didn't get the primary skills you want in MW and OB, you had to start the game all over again and make a new save file, which I had to do so many times because I have more than seven primary skills. I had Skyrim since day one, and never had to start the game over again because I'm playing the way as I well damn please.

But okay fine, let's have some fun. Whether or not Morrowind is a better game than Skyrim or not is totally up to a person's interpretation. There is no right answer, and your opinion is as valid as mine. However, as is you've added nothing to the conversation. Tell me why Skyrim > Morrowind. What about Skyrim do you like so much that Morrowind didn't have? What did Morrowind have that you hated? And, to show that you have an informed opinion rather than a popular but thoughtless one, tell us one or two things about Morrowind that you liked, or think that Skyrim could've learned from.