So Bob runs around killing other people for all of 10 minutes, 15-20 if you're playing objective based games, on a very limited amount of maps against other "unique" players with probably about as little knowledge of team tactics as everyone else in the game... yeah, ok, there's really a story there.

Play New Vegas for 20 minutes and you'll see why we're concerned. (Yes, Obsidian did NV, but its a nice dichatomy, especially when compared to FO:3)

BGS has a bad habit of "streamlining" for the mass appeal, which leaves their games rather bare boned in the end.

I understand expanding the market, but there *are* good writers still out there; yet, they either refuse to evolve in a positive manner, and, god forgive me for saying this, but they literally dumb down things without hessitation.

Having started playing games in the early 90's, it seems like the market is devolving into utter brain mush.

I played Skyrim for quite some time, it was fun at face-value, until I realized what very little of the TES series I fell in love with, was left. I see a lot of replies that say "Skyrim is awesome with both! Oh yeah and its my first TES" I can't blame you for feeling that way, that's EXACTLY what BGS did with Skyrim. If you can get past the terrible graphics of MW (one of the first posts of the thread said they couldn't, somewhat ironic) please attempt to appreciate what that game gives you.

Skyrim, imo, is hardly an RPG. It's a good game, however, if I feel like randomly exploring for no reason (I don't, thus I put Skyrim on the shelf months ago). They literally turned their backs on (almost) the entire TES community to gain a buck with the buy-trade-in crowd.

A RPG game consist of more then just Character creation and character developement. Seeing this thread makes me wonder if a lot of people really understand what the genre is about or not...

Who says roleplaying needs to be meaningful or have a point to it? Someone mentioned how in Skyrim you can just wander around being a hunter, essentially doing a very limited activity in a limited area. It doesn't matter how you're doing it, the fact that you're roleplaying can happen in practically any context and, with imagination, you the player can make it fun/interesting. The 'story' of the game is what you make it, just because you don't follow the 'main quest' (single player campaign) doesn't mean that the other aspects of the game aren't valid afterall...


Of course it does! Ding Ding Ding! This man wins a prize! The point of this whole argument over whether or not Black Ops is an RPG stems from the idea that Skyrim doesn't contain many of the elements that you might say an RPG game must contain. Therefore, I am trying to prove that any definition of an RPG that you broaden enough to include Skyrim can also be applied to and used to justify Black Ops as an RPG as well. Therefore showing the weakness inherent in Skyrim as an RPG, which was the entire argument behind my side of this thread - Skyrim can be a great game, but it is not a great RPG.

RPG's can have a LOT of elements. Take Paper Mario for example, for anyone with an N64. The game is an RPG, you go around, fighting enemies and bosses, planning your turn-based moves accordingly, and when you level up, YOU are given the option to customize the set of skills they have layed out for you.


So in a sense, an RPG is a game where you pretend your the character, you go around fighting stuff, but wait! You can have VARIETY, you can make the move you want to make. Then you eventually win the battle. If you can't, then obviously your strategy was inefficient. Nontheless, you'll also level up, until you are eventually ready to defeat a boss, take his [censored], and press on.

Yeah. Before anyone corrects me, that's the example in a nutshell.

Hey, if you want to use your imagination to roleplay in Black Ops, more power to you. But when you are doing all of that, there is no storyline that you are advancing through. You are not making choices for your character. You may be receving unlocks and getting some perks, but that alone does not make an RPG. It has no other defining areas of an RPG. Sports games like Madden have all of the "Intelligence like" attributes that you are looking for in RPG's, but that doesn't make those games RPG's either, because it's more than just one or two elements that make up an RPG.

But hey, let me pose this question - if Morrowind is such a gold standard of RPG's, and Skyrim isn't, let me ask - where is all this choice in Morrowind that everyone is talking about?

During the main quest, can I make choices that can alter the outcome? No? Really? I can't join the 6th House? No, I can't? That's right...

During the main quest in Skyrim, can I make choices that can alter the outcome? Yes? Really?? Awesome!! Oh, you mean I have the choice to determine what to do about the Paarthurnax conflict, and my choice will alienate me from a major faction? Awesome!!

Plus all the sidequests in Skyrim where you can make choices, I.E. do you turn Saadia over to the A'likr, or do you help her? Do you help everyone who you screwed over in "A Night To Remember", or do you just intimidate them into giving you the info you need? There are plenty of choices in Skyrim. Perhaps the consequences aren't as significant as some may like, but the choice is still there.

So what exactly is it that makes Morrowind more of an RPG than Skyrim? Is it Attributes? Because if so, that's a pretty bad reason. Madden has "attributes", does that make Madden a better RPG? Attributes aren't definitive. They may have been a very common element of RPG's from the beginning, but that doesn't mean that every RPG that ever comes out has to be made in the same mold as Dungeons & Dragons.

You can't say it's choice, because Skyrim offers more choice than Morrowind.

Is it story? NPC interaction? Well, those are subjective. So that can't be it.

Is it skills? Well, it is fact that there are less skills in Skyrim than Morrowind, but it's subjective the impact that has. With less skills, I feel like I have more variety in Skyrim than I did in Morrowind, because the perks system allows me to further customize and specialize within each individual skill, giving me more character possibilities and - get this - more choice.

It certainly can't be that Morrowind has an "alien" world, because that has never been an defining attribute of RPG's...

So, what is it about Morrowind that makes it a better RPG? What does it do, roleplaying wise, that is so much better than Skyrim. Is it just the attributes and being able to kill any NPC? Because if so, that's pretty bad reasoning.

And when answering, remember this: the term is "role playing", not "roll playing"

I started with Morrowind. It changed my life (nearly literally), it was my favorite game of all time.

Skyrim is better.

It is a better game. It is a better RPG.

Of course, that's my opinion - a subjective one - just like your opinion is also subjective.

But don't assume those of us that are in love with Skyrim just started there. I've been with TES since the launch of Morrowind.

If Skyrim isn't an RPG, then RPG's are simply inferior to games like Skyrim.

If Skyrim isn't an RPG, Morrowind and Oblivion aren't RPG's either.

I mean, you just said if COD had a good story, it would elevate into an RPG. Can we go anywhere with a subjective classification like that? Just throw some awful ruleset, come up with a good story and memorable characters: instant RPG classic. The stagnation is apparent, we just wait for someone to come up with a good story.

@Nell2ThaIzzay, I am sorry if you can't look past the MQ of Morrowind. Even then MQ was really good as you can have your own interpretation, the story was desinged to let it. You need to play it again to refresh your memories.

Read this again.(it is hard but try )

Skyrim is what most will define as an Action RPG, it focuses on action and have RPG elements. It doesn't focuses heavy on the RPG bit like Morrowind did, where the RPG bit was good gameplay a bit [censored]. Same with Dragon Age 2 also an action RPG even tho it was stripped for majority of things you could call RPG elements. It had just about enough of them to use the label...

Games since they started to reach the masses has changed a lot from what we grew up with in the 90's, and it is a bit bad but also a bit positive. The main problem is that games have become mainstream, just like movies these days are becoming worse and worse. A good action movie today consist of tons of explosion, awesome effects and a nice looking girl. Story is at best usually to laugh at because it is non existent or so standard you wonder if it took 5 minutes top write it down. Looking at what was considered good action movies in the 80's and 90's you easy will see they have more focus on having a story that can seem somewhat realistic, they do have explosion but the special effects are less focused and they put their attention on other parts. Same goes a bit with RPG's, today they are produced to please the masses, not the minority that want a deep and involving RPG. Mass Effect tried to create a trilogy with a deep story, First one isn't bad, second ok a lot more action, but still ok. Third one is more or less a pure action game with RPG elements. and the reason is simple. Action sell more then deep involving stories and timeconsuming character creation etc. The masses wants to be entertained, not entertain themselves, and sadly it is the masses that makes it possible for game companies to survive. There are indie developers that does well, but they don't have the same budgets or costs as main stream gaming developers have either.

I agree that Skyrim isn't a great RPG. It does have elements of RPG, but they are nowhere deep enough for whjat I would have wanted. and the one thing I think is perfectly fine in Skyrim is Character creation, I miss the little things that makes the world sound and feel realistic. Skyrim is a great game, but it is nowhere near the best RPG title out there. Yet I will play it for a long time as it is a very good game at what it does.

Nope, sorry, I just looked through my posts and I said nothing of the sort. You must be talking about someone else.

I believe skyrim is a rpg, but dosent compare to the older tes.

^ u obviously was not paying attention while paying then. If morrowind didnt have any more interaction than skyrim, then how come u get different dialogues for different races as far as general public, different disposition with different citys and races depending on ur race. Having to do an extra quest or being able to skip a quest because of said race or class. How come in skyrim, anyoen and everyone u just met will give u important quests whereas in morrowind alot fo quests u couldnt get/finish/deny unless u had a certain general fame or good/bad diposition with said npc. Hell what about just denying quests, what happened to that? Racials actually meaning something, like argonians and underwater combat. How bout factions? U join one faction, u will be the enemy of another one. ranks, why did they get rid of ranks? yes u could join every guild but unliek skyrim where u could be the head mage only knowing ur starting off healing spell or be the master thief with no perks into anythign sneaky, u actually had to work for ur spots and only became the head person when u A. worked for it and more importantly B. u were actually excelling in what the guild was about. theres so much more, and with all of these skyrim is still not lackign in any areas?

They got excellent graphics and combat, and all they thought they had to do was scrap the intelligent and fulfilling storys, scraping the feelings of actually working and climbing the ladder in guilds, and just pretty much destroy the literal and communal population sandbox and replaced it with guards who hear about everything whiel everyone else has no clue.

But the thing is, you are looking at Morrowind through nostalgia colored glasses. It did none of those things to the extent that you are making it out to be - certainly no more than Skyrim did.

NPC's don't really treat you that differently. There is a disposition bar, that is roughly for prices when bartering, and sometimes to get access to a different topic in conversation.

Which essentially is what happens in Skyrim... Your Speechcraft skill affects bartering, and if you have a good enough skill, you can persuade or intimidate someone to give you information they wouldn't otherwise give you.

Plenty of Skyrim NPC's treat you differently based on your actions. I've had plenty of NPC's that I do deeds for, who then treat me better than they did before because I did something for them. That aspect is there.

Guards comment on your actions and accomplishments plenty. It is true that sometimes the dialogue is glitchy and gives inaccurate dialogue, but character accurate dialogue also exists - I have heard it.

Cities in Morrowind are huge? Okay. Cities in Skyrim are bigger.

You have to rise up through the ranks in guilds in Morrowind? True. That is one aspect that is better. But that in and of itself isn't enough to make Morrowind a better RPG.

So you have guild ranks, and some guard dialogue when passing them.

Hardly enough on it's own to warrant Morrowind as the better RPG.

skyrim is a roleplaying game with few rpg-character based mechanics.

do you understand the difference?

morrowind's combat and oblivions character development have classic rpg-character based mechanics.

do you understand the difference?

Absolutely right. If you put a gun to my head and made me pick, I would indeed call Skyrim an RPG (a bad one, but an RPG all the same). However, if we continue on the current TES trend will Elder Scrolls 6 really be an RPG in all but the shallowest, more minimum terms? I certainly doubt it.

@ Nell

I wish you would organize your posts a little bit better so it would be easier to respond in detail, but as is I don't feel like making quotes for each line of your post to reply in painstaking detail. But I will answer you broadly: Morrowind has much more choice than Skyrim. In terms of the different weapons, armor, magical abilities, skill choices, freedom to explore, guilds you can join, different locations you can visit, and of course in terms of different ways to complete quests. Couple this with a more unique world design, better story (and the existence of worthwhile sidestories) contributes to make Morrowind a much better game (in my opinion) and a much better RPG (more objectively speaking) than Skyrim.

this is skyrim:

level what you use and pick a perk.

that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

the most thought you have to do in the game is preplan your character and pick the appropriate skills to use and perks to gain.

Kill vivec, steal wraithguard, activate it via yagrum. I don't remember being able to kill Delphine and decide my own way on how to handle the problem.
Heck you don't even need wraithguard if you properly plan with potions and other buffs.
Decide you don't like the prophecy and completely skip it(Yep you can skip that whole name him nerevarine/hortator bit).
Kill quest essential NPCs.

I feel you, buddy, my post wasn't directed at you, per se --- was just an observation.


I understand catering to mass appeal, but it does seem like they assumed our brains stopped working at some point.

Personally, I find this a very bland argument.

Either you haven't played Morrowind or you are simply ignoring the things that did make Morrowind the better RPG regarding the criticism.

Did you forget one very important element of RPG? Did you play morrowind with 90% combat time? Did you ever walk peacefully into a town, talk to everyone and gain quest by NPC or browing the shop for gear and potions? An RPG got more stuff than plain combat. What is COD? you will never able to walk freely in a town, gathering informations, buying gears, chatting with NPCs, receiving quests, making your own choice do the quest or not...you don't get it in COD, Well said, you have all these elements in all TES series and every RPG out there, you are not getting these contents by a merely 10% of the game, in fact, over 50% of the game content are these RPG walking, chatting, buying, questing elements. That's what make COD a FPS rather than an RPG. Well of course if they make a new COD based on skyrim engine, or even a mod, you are a freelancer mercenary, go browsing the town, getting quests, advance on your level and your perks, i will be more than happy to say it is a COD-RPG.

There are plenty of people on these forums who talk about having made successful characters who literally spent the entire game avoiding towns altogether and in some extreme cases NEVER trading with anyone, just completely living off the land.

But in terms of Call of Duty Black Ops you don't get to walk into town or gather information but you can buy gear (spend CoD Points to unlock an assault rifle for 3000), you also receive 'quests' (Contracts, like kill a certain number of people in a certain way and you get extra CoD points). And if you think Skyrim has 'chatting' with NPCs on a meaningful level then you're fooling yourself. Most NPCs won't even start a conversation with you, they'll just opine on the one topic that dominates their mind, and have nothing else to say. Do you get to the Cloud District often? Oh! What am I saying? Even the interactions with the important NPCs which could be construed as a conversation aren't really. When you talk to Jarl Balgruuf he pretty much says the same things, and reaches the same conclusions no matter what you reply to him. It's no different than playing Call of Duty: Black Ops and listening to the characters talk to you in the campaign, except Black Ops removes the step of having to press a button to get the NPC to say his next line.

Opinion =\= fact

My first post in this thread explains that my first TES was meant to be Morrowind, but it didn't happen. However, I am now playing Morrowind along side Skyrim and I'm siding with Skyrim at the moment. So far, I'm not impressed with Morrowind. It took me hours just to get 10 experience points to level up to level 2 and even rats were giving me a challenge that required me to keep leaving the area so I could heal up and go back to carry on taking them out.

lol!

and, there you have it. in a nutshell, imo.

proving the difference between rpg-character vs player skill -based games.

you don't like the former while i and many others love it and call it a true rpg.

dude i just recently started playign morrowind for my first time. I started playing it for my first time AFTER i put 400 hours into skyrim. Yes i did a graphics mod to make it visually more pleasing BUT its still vanilla morrowind. Its a totally different atmosphere and im looking at this with brand new eyes. The place and culture and choices oozeees thru out the entire game.

but besides all the little stuff that morrowind does that skyrims scraqes, how about this.
Lets say theres a quest to steal an item from someone, lets say a red ruby.
In skyrim, u go in and steal the ruby. easy enough, get caught dotn worry, they wotn take it. Also the quest giver dosent want the red ruby alrdy in ur pocket because apparently he believes theres only one red ruby in the world and its at thats persons house.
In morrowind, if ya got the ruby just hand it over its done, go and steal it and get caught? well u gotta go sneak into the guards house and retreive it from the evidence box. Complete the quest, HEY looky here i can pick pocket it off of this guy hehehe. Dont like the quest? u can actually DENY the quest and gasp it wont be hogging space in ur quest log. OMG theres blood on my knife, u mean to tell me i coulda killed him as well at anytime? meaning hes not essecntial and if he just pissed me off, i was just in the mood, or hell i had gotten caught pickpocketing him earlier in the game and out of terror killed him...gasp.

its all the little things thats missing form skyrim, with morrowind if ya had a lil imagination u had so many possiblilities. Skyrism a fun game and hell i even consider it a rpg, but its all the little thigns that were thrown to the side that i am now seeing used to be there, and dammit i want them back in the newer games.