And those who do figure him to be important should be screwed over when a vampire or dragon or wayward pot kills him, subsequently failing an entire faction quest-line for the aspiring thief.

He could still die.

Easier said that done. Not sure how that would work.

He could still die.

Awkward

IIRC, the Civil War was going to be much grander. For instance, being able to lay siege to all cities, instead of just Whiterun (the game data files still include unused debris and object markers for that purpose). I believe it was intended that you could gain and lose holds over time. There's also unused data and script comments about other incomplete quests, including one for getting a giant to help by befriending it with a painted cow (oh, the fun that could be had by seeing a giant stomp into battle and send Stormcloaks into the stratosphere..). For some reason, I think the Civil War wasn't even going to be completable and instead was just going to be a constant back'n'forth with losing holds over time and doing quests to retake them, but I'm not sure if that was actually going to be the case, or if it's just something I heard somewhere else.

The biggest problem with the guild quests was that they were short, and the story was rushed and/or anticlimactic. The College, for instance, ends when it felt like it was just getting started, the Companions don't have you do much except kill some "special" bandits and some Hagravens. They're short even by Oblivion standards, and Oblivion already felt like it was rushing things at times. Also the railroading: you must become a werewolf to continue the Companions (can't tattle on Aela and Skjor for an alternate path siding with Kodlak, and can't even continue doing Radiant Quests once the non-choice is presented)... you must serve Nocturnal to continue the Thieves Guild... you must join the College for the main quest*, etc.

It definitely feels to me like the Radiant Story system was supposed to play a much larger role with the guilds -- not only in extending the quest lines, but also in providing alternative paths and keeping guilds going after the "main" conflict -- and they had to scramble to get something hand-done when they realized they couldn't get it working in time.

One of the bigger features of the Radiant Quests is to be able to psuedo-randomly select actors, locations, and items for a given quest (where a quest can be something as small as a guard trying to talk to you, or a barmaid/store-clerk tending their station), which could even be weighted or modified based on any of the innumerable stats the game keeps track of ("Bunnies slaughtered" is just the tip of the iceberg). Such a system could've been absolutely stellar for emergent storytelling and gameplay, if they had the time to get it working.

How? If Brynjolf dies they entire guild just stops functioning? There's no second second-in-command to fill his place? You can't just get hired by Mercer directly? Or any of the other thieves you bump into? What, Brynjolf was the only one in charge of recruitment and the thieves guild is really big on procedure or something?

The game can detect when you do damage to an enemy for the purposes of issuing a bounty. I don't see why it'd be significantly more challenging to detect who's doing damage when deciding whether someone is knocked out or dies.

Maybe, but it'd be significantly less likely.

How? If Brynjolf dies they entire guild just stops functioning? There's no second second-in-command to fill his place? You can't just get hired by Mercer directly? Or any of the other thieves you bump into? What, Brynjolf was the only one in charge of recruitment and the thieves guild is really big on procedure or something?

They kind of built the story around Brynjolf, Mercer and Karliah. I'm not a fan of the Thieves Guild recruitment in Skyrim, but it's still awkward given the way they constructed the questline.

Skyrim could learn from New Vegas when it comes to the faction system.

Only in the sense that they only recorded quest dialogue for Brynjolf. There's nothing about the questline that demands his participation. He gives you quests and briefly accompanies you on a few missions, but anyone could do that. Delvin or Vex could easily slip into the role.

So much this.

Actually, most games could learn a lot from New Vegas.

Eh I felt New Vegas focused too much on NCR for quests, but its understandable seeing how they own New Vegas.

I don't think this needs to turn into a TES vs Fallout thread, where it's pretty easily going. Can we just talk about choices in TES? Please, guys? Pleaaaaaaase? These threads are just repetitive and lead nowhere.

I, for one, think Bethesda needs to expand on Choices and Consequences regardless of the game series they're taking a page from.

Look at the title...

They don't, House does. The game was pretty heavily biased towards the NCR in quests, for no seemingly good reason. I'll admit that. But this thread isn't about that. So why did I respond? CURSES.

You know what I meant. The Legion got what five or six quests?

Terrible title, yes. But people need to actually read the OP.

...okay the OP was pretty lopsided, too.

Well. My argument isn't standing up well here. Can we at least SALVAGE the thread? You know, like the Prospectors in Fallout: Ne - oh god dammit.

You know what I mean.

As far as FNV vs The best game ever Skyrim threads go, this one isn't so bad. There's a few posts with opinions disguised as facts, but nothing terribly bad.

I think Bethesda should hire some of the people from Obsidian and get them, to do the quest and story writing. Then again I'd rather have Bethesda do it because they know the lore.

I don't have a problem with people having different opinions from me, but just remember that this is all that it is. If you enjoy FNV more than Skyrim, fine, but don't try to make it out like that is fact. In my eyes, fallout new vegas doesn't hold a candle to Skyrim. Especially in the lore department. Doesn't mean its true for everyone.

I see Skyrim to be very incomplex and quite dumbed down to be considered an RPG. Yes, the game looks pretty and is fun, but is seems to have downgraded itself when it comes to being a true RPG like a TES is meant to be. Fallout New Vegas hit the nail with this, as with previous Fallout games and previous Elder Scrolls. As for the reason why the Legion lack quest and a lot of other things is Bethesda's deadlines. Caesar's Legion and the rest of the game could have been so much more if New Vegas went through another year of development.

There is a reason Fallout is Fallout, and TES is TES.

Both games are fine on their own. I would really prefer if they both were not mixed together.

I agree OP. Choices and Consequences go hand in hand with Role Playing.
I want to think about the individual situations and deal with them in a way that suits my character, not just the one way the game limits me to.
It'd be an added bonus if more NPCs were non-essential (like FNV). Can't refuse the quest, can't kill the buggers, bah...

Terrible title, yes. But people need to actually read the OP.

...okay the OP was pretty lopsided, too.

Well. My argument isn't standing up well here. Can we at least SALVAGE the thread? You know, like the Prospectors in Fallout: Ne - oh god dammit.

You know what I mean.