Odd... I can't seem to set the cost to 0 though the options key, but I can set the wait to 0.
I can lower the cost, it just won't let me go that far.

Just checked: Yeah, lower level is 50. I'll change that to 0 in next release. But for now you can use console and type
set wrLevZ.costPerLevel to 0.
When done uberizing, you should use console again to raise the value back up.

Edit: Had to fix a minor bug in Wrye Leveling anyway, so... New version of Wrye Leveling. Allows you to go down to 0 cost per level.

Started a new character. It took me a little while to get around to it, but I did the quest. Awesome, even if it is a bit short... Other than that, everything still works, except the arrow fix, so I'm getting just 1 arrow equipped on shifts, though a full quiver does display on my character. The last version's arrow fix worked fine, though, so :shrug:.

I still can't get it to work with OMG, but I've stopped caring now that there's a quest (I feel guilty abandoning lore for the nifty-factor, but oh well!). I've also tried out a few other mods though, and I'm having the exact same problem with Better Cities Bruma and also Better Cities Full (Tried both, but running every other city than Bruma works fine), Terran Vampires (I actually tried this one a while ago, but I've done a reinstall since then. I forgot it was incompatible until I tried to load it again... I think I'd tried it with the earliest version of Morph you released, too, as I did with OMG), and More Suburban Life: Weye. Once again, I deactivated everything I had except those plugins essential to Morph and these mods (running one at a time, of course, so yes, each of these has been isolated). I've tried putting them literally everywhere in my load order to no avail...

I can't fathom what these might have in common that's messing with Morph to the point that it crashes, BC: Bruma adds two whole (tiny) scripts and MSL: Weye adds none whatsoever. They all add/change factions, but Bruma and Weye add only one each. Is anyone else out there in Internet-land running any of these with Morph to any degree of success, or am I the only one with this problem?

I'm running Better Cities full, so that should work. (I've been getting a freeze on quit, but I think that's due to http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/Crashes#Edits_to_Tamriel_cell_.28-47.2C-7.29 -- BC does indeed delete some items in that cell. I.e. I don' think that's related to Wrye Morph.)

Re lore... There's a lot of leeway in the lore. From what I've heard elsewhere, physical transformations are only supposed to be possible through the intercession of a Daedra (e.g. Werewolves are linked to Hircine, Vampires to Baal (? I think)). So for the Book of Souls, which allows you almost arbitrary metamorphosis, you would need a very heavy Daedric power. And I explain that briefly at the end of the quest where your character realizes what he/she has done -- and how the powr is acquired Still, in a future version, I might make that a little clearer. Of course, if you've completed SI, things should play a bit differently -- but that ties into my theory about what happens in SI.

Re hints: It's a little difficult. People mostly get used to Oblivion as being a FPS game, so running across something that requires close attention to somewhat obscure clues is a difficult shift to make. But yeah, in a future version, I'l try to do a more drawn out quest.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that someone's made it through the quest. The more feedback I get, the more motivation I'll have to do something more elaborate! One hates throwing a party for an empty room.

*provides more feedback*

Don't worry, the explanation of how it works is quite apparent (that last journal entry spooked me, by the way; I started running around scribing every NPC I could find. =P). Didn't mean your mod didn't connect to the lore, it's just that OMG added a lot of depth to the Guild, which was kinda dull in vanilla... I guess I meant immersion rather than lore... I dunno, that still sounds harsh. Well, here: if you're taking it as criticism of your mod, don't, because it isn't.

I actually hadn't seen Maren - I'd been messing with ScreenEffects and I'd cranked the shadows up and color saturation down, so it was absurdly dark in the cave (looked great outside, though!) and I didn't notice him, therefore not getting the clues. I'd just read the journal and said "!!!" and just stormed off into the city with reckless abandon and thought it was some sort of glitch when he didn't. And then I looked in the CS ("When did that guy get there?!") and felt like a complete twit when I read his, eh, "notes," so it was actually totally my fault...

I can't wait to see what you cook up for a longer quest.

EDIT: And this mention of SI features is intriguing... *grabs some lettuce and yarn... and lots and lots of cheese*

At the risk of facing the Wrath of Wrye ... I'm going to ask a question.

I want to replay Oblivion main and side quests as a team of companions (a mage , thief, warrior etc). I want to base them on one or other of the available companion mods or maybe pick up NPC companions along the way via the companion share and recruit mod. Depending on the quest, day, my mood etc I want to morph into one of the team members and take the lead role, directing the others as per their scripted companion interface. I figure that when I morph into a "companion" their script interface is disabled because they become a PC, not an NPC. I can talk to and direct the other companions through their companion interface. I NEVER intend to switch back to the original PC who made it through the sewers. That person won't really exist as someone who can interact with the world. He was just a soul carrier who's job was to find a first companion and take over from there. I'm unsure about how leveling will work although it seems I can get around that with the money based Wrye leveling approach. I guess I'm trying to create a situation similar to what I've seen in Never Winter Nights 2 where you can switch the lead role in a team and get the team members to progress in their own skill areas. So can you see any fundamental problems with this?

btw - no intention to svck up here but what you've created is incredible, notwithstanding the base developed by breeze. Even if it can't do what I want.I will be trying it out one way or the other because I've always wanted to check out what's in some of the inaccessible locations without resorting to "common" thievery ... doppelganging is not "common".

Post-SI: There's won't be any special SI features, just a different reading to essentially the same events. Really, just a slightly different interaction at the end.

sixflavors: Under Wrye Morph, when you become another character, you really become a duplicate of that other character, while the original character is disabled. So, main thing is to make sure that the companions actually respect being disabled and don't re-enable themselves on their own. Keep this in mind:
1) The first time you doppelgang a character, you get a copy of all their stuff. And if they're leveled with respect to the PC, then you'll be leveled accordingly. However, after this first time copying, you and the original npc are separate. I.e. even if they level up, your version of them won't -- you'll have to do that independently. Ditto with inventory. You could script your way around this, but it would be a fair amount of work.
2) WM places some limitations on doppelganged characters. (Mainly that their leveling does not count towards your "maxLevel" -- but I can change that. Also, I need to make a minor technical change to allow doppelganged characters assume the lead role in various factions. (Mostly a theoretical thing.)

Yep, the exploring is rather fun. Mostly guard towers and castle back areas. It would be nice to add some more easter-egg doppelgang-only locations. Be a lot of work though.

Breeze's work is very good. Not many folks are such across-the-board modders (programming, scripting, modeling, storyline). While I've expanded on his approach substantially, without his invention of the core trifecta (custom obse plugin + scripting + wrye bash based monitor), morphing wouldn't be possible. Very innovative and clever.

Got a question that I didn't see a answer to on your page, and figured it'd be worth asking: I've seen mods that allow you to change your hair in game, your eyes in game, and stuff like that, but I was wondering if wyre morph combined with said mods would let you give a NPC a makeover, without the use of the CS.
I guess what I'm asking is, do changes to what the NPC has or wears while you are said NPC change what they have/wear(And what they look like with those mods I've seen) remain on the NPC when you are no longer them?

No. It's one way and one time only. I.e. the first time you doppelgang an NPC, a copy is made of them. There's no connection after that. I.e. any subsequent changes to that NPC are not reflected on your copy of them or vice versa.

With a lot of scripting, more of a connection could be maintained. E.g. hairstyle, eyes, clothing, etc. But I'm not going to be doing that. Got enough work already.

Occasionally one of my shapes gets corrupted! The first time it happened it wasn't a problem because I wasn't using the morph inventory system.

But now its happened again on a new shape, and I'd like to be able to recover her equipment before trying to remake her. Didn't you said that the inventory for the other shapes are placed into a hidden chest somewhere? Whats the command to open it? so I can recover her stuff before remaking her?

Or do inventories of deleted characters get put back into your main inventory?

Edit: Damn... I must have misread it!


Her stuff is gone forever isn't it!

I would love to download this mod, though my oblivion doesn't like updating to the newest patch, and therefor, I can't use OBSE.

Anyhow, I love the idea, and despite a Noob-Killing-Defensive-Shield around the thread, It looks like something that would be great to have.
Downloading this ASAP once my oblivion starts working.

What do you mean the "shape gets corrupted"?

I'm not sure this will help, but it will at least be amusing... All of your new shapes exist as NPCs in a special cell. Each of these npcs acts as the template, but also acts as a holding tank for the inventory associated with that shape. So all you have to do is pop over there, find that shape, kill it and raid it's inventory. Probably be a good idea to resurrect it afterwards. I'm really not sure if this will help you or not, but it's worth a try. And like I said, at least it will be amusing to be suddenly be surrounded by all of your cloned shapes. (Hmm, some of which may be homicidal if they're clones of evil characters.)

To join the party, open the console and cod to wrMorCloneHole. (Note that, I make no guarantees that this won't cause various weird side effects. Probably should be okay, but :shrug: it's not a place you're meant to go.)


Yeah, that Noob killing shield works perhaps a little better than I had expected. I haven't even gottena chance to insta-ignore anyone yet. Such a shame...

I think maybe what Hopalong's talking about is his game crashing when he shifts, which happened to me when I moved Morph (and in some cases the mod that added the NPC) around in my load order (or just adding a mod before it) between saves (unrelated to the OMG crash, unfortunately). If that's the case, just move Morph to the top of your load order and keep it there forever and ever and ever. If that isn't the case, I'm just getting paranoid - doing anything to my load order lately has caused very odd, mildly frustrating problems, like being unable to save without crashing. I did a reinstall, and I'm currently in the process of DLing mods... but more on my problems later. EDIT: Reinstall fixed this for me. Dunno, might still help.

Hopalongtom: To get your gear back, do what Wrye said, but if you want the whole character back and still have a savegame of said character, you can create a new shape with that character's race, then save. Using Bash you can then import the old character's name, face and stats into the new save (that was a crap explanation; there's a more detailed step-by-step in the Bash readme under Face Import).

Back to my issues, the reinstall didn't help the Morph/OMG hate (First two mods I DL'd, with all the Morph essentials, so I think it's safe to say this one is pretty durn isolated. I'm just gonna try asking Giskard about this). Haven't tested Terran Vampires or More Suburb Life: Weye yet (EDIT: Yes I have, and they still don't play nice with Morph), but oddly enough, BC works fine now. :shrug: Oh... Unless maybe I had an old version... *facepalm*

Crash on Save: Yeah, I had a major problem with that recently. Here's my experience (copy of crosspost to pluggy list):

If you have additional light to shed on when this does and does not occur, please let me know.

I don't really know what was up either. I've had to do a reinstall due to this same problem before, actually (lost a few good characters; this time I lost an Archmage with 80 hours clocked in. Shame, too, 'cause I'd only just become Archmage 10 minutes before the crashes started). I hadn't been using pluggy the last time this happened, so that's not the problem, and I don't use OOO either (I personally like TIE). Both times, the bloat cleaner in Bash said there was no bloat to speak of... This time, my save files exceeded 8 megs, which rings a bell to me, so I'm pretty sure that's how big they were last time. May or may not have anything to do with it, but I saw http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=862997 thread recently.

His problem seems to be similar, except he starts crashing when it gets up to 10 megs. According to some of the people who posted, certain mods are known to do this (Thievery in the Imperial City and OBSE Persuasion Overhaul 1.3 are listed, neither of which I was using). I messed around with my load order, and it seemed to stem mainly from adding or removing any mod after it got to the 8 meg line. If I changed my load order and went into the game, loaded up Save A (naming it so this doesn't get confusing), which showed up as green in Bash, and then saved (quick, auto, or just plain old save), it would crash, corrupting the new save as well. So, I tried going into Bash and using the Load Masters command on Save A (I went so far as to make sure everything was in the EXACT same order, no changed dates at all, so Save A showed up as purple). Went into the game, saved, and no crashes whatsoever. But if I moved ONE mod around in my load order, didn't matter which, I'd crash on save. Add a mod? Crash. Remove a mod? Crash. Also, loading up an old save that was less than 8 megs and then trying to save occasionally worked, but most of the time it didn't.

I disabled all the mods I'd recently installed (the new voice-overed version of Lost Spires was one of them, Choices and Consequences, See You Sleep, the new version of Morph (heh, sorry), don't remember the others... Mannimarco Revisited might've been part of it) and got it to work temporarily, but then it just started crashing again. Figured it was my .ini, which I'd done a bit of customization with lately, messing with view distance, but deleting that and letting Oblivion recreate it didn't help. From there I'd just assumed it was maybe that my oblivion.esm or something else equally vital got corrupted (not sure whether that should even cause something like this or not), hence the reinstall. So far, no problems, but right now, I've got all of about 30 mods installed when I'd had 220 before... Got a bit of a ways before I regain that behemoth of a load list, but if I start having this problem again, I'll try to give a more detailed anolysis...

Well, Wrye Morph and Wrye Leveling both mess with leveling (in different ways).

Bloating... Perhaps something with copying a character that has negative count of items in inventory? I'll check the code for that.

Re space consumption: For every character that you copy, you'll get:
1) A new base object record. (NPC)
2) A new instance of that new base object (this is the instance that joins the crowd in wrMorCloneHole).
3) A new misc. base object for each npc. (These are for the tokens that appear in the Book of Souls.

So, these will use up a bit more memory, esp. if you start cloning tons of NPCs. Still, it won't be that much. Bloating happens when you get thosands of new objects, not 10s (or even 100's).

Well, Bash reported 0 bloat whatsoever, but Kivan's mention of "beating up things that can't/won't fight back" does make me wonder... Before I switched to Must Train (partly to make it so I wouldn't go from levels 1 to 70 every time I shapeshift, and partly to remove the grind-factor from the game), I used to cast spells on doors to raise my magic skills. This does, in fact, work :dance:, and I've spent quite a significant amount of time doing it... I wonder if that might've caused something to go wrong. Sounds like he's only talking about actors and creatures, and I can't imagine why attacking a door would cause any problems. :blink: But... well, I guess I'll just never do that anymore.

I've already remade the character, good thing she wasn't holding anything irreplaceable (just expensive, yay for gold cheat)!

I got some sort of error when I started bash saying that the autosave.ess had a corrupted shape or something. I thought nothing of it to begin with, but found I could not morph into that character without CDTing but all the other shapes I had were fine!

I'll make a note of that console command incase I need to rescue anything again, It'd be horrible If I lose someone holding an important non-quest tagged item! :facepalm: But thats the risk I'm taking from using an experimental mod eh?

Looks like assuming a new shape while on horseback is a bad idea, at least for me. It leads to a black screen that I have to taskman kill to get out.

[Specifically Armored Shadowmere for my example]

If you get "corrupted savegame" message while starting bash, that has nothing to do with Wrye Morph -- its a more general complaint about the savegame itself being corrupted.


I'll have to disallow morphing while on horesback.

Yeah, but at the time only one of the shapes got effected by the corruption and not everyone!

Finally bothered to ask on Giskard's forum about the OMG crash. Waiting for a reply. EDIT: Got one (http://www.mechstorm.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=4728 is the thread, btw). Basically, Giskard would have to understand how Morph works to know what it is in OMG that might conflict with it. He doesn't, so that's that. :mellow:

EDIT AGAIN: The Morph vs. OMG/Terran Vampires/More Suburb Life crash problem is solved. Each mod deletes vanilla refs, which is the cause of a crash which occurs whenever you load a savegame without dying. Strangely enough it wasn't happening unless I shapeshifted (loading normally worked fine), but regardless, using Bash's Undelete Refs command on them worked like a charm (I'm hoping I haven't messed up those mods in the process, but I've got backups). So that problem's solved. :twirl:

Hopalong: Are you sure you loaded up the exact same save Bash was complaining about...? According to Wrye's description of the way Morph works, I'm not sure a single shape CAN get corrupted... It's never happened to me, at least (except for what I mentioned with moving Morph and/or the mod that added a doppelganged NPC around in my load order and my game then responding by hating me), and with my luck that's surprising. ^_^ If Bash ever shows the error message it gave you again, I recommend posting it, word for word. I've had Bash tell me a SAVE got corrupted, after which I couldn't load that same save again, but Bash itself never reported any errors with a shape itself (again, I don't think it can... Wrye, of course, would know if it could, but if it could, I imagine he'd know what you're talking about).

Bash's shapeshift works through quicksave followed by quickload. Perhaps that's somehow a problem, depending on complexity of loaded gameworld and power of users machine. :shrug: Maybe.

I may have to look at undelete refs function a bit more now that Ralgor's additions to Bash allows better manipulation of cell contents.

Dunno. The load-without-dying crash wasn't happening at all otherwise, normal quickload, normal load, whatever. Apparently that crash tends to mess with quitting to the menu, too, but I've actually been able to do that since my reinstall (...man, it feels good to say that - I haven't been able to do that since I got this game. =P). My machine's somewhere between mid-high range; Oblivion and Crysis are really the only two things I've thrown at it that it struggles with at all, so that might explain why it wasn't crashing without shapeshifting. As for why it was crashing when I DID shapeshift, I and another guy on Giskard's forum were guessing maybe it's something about the way Morph's scripts were affecting the quickload, or something about Bashmon, maybe, somehow it "woke up" the load-without-dying crash which had previously been dormant. *realizes how dumb that sounded* *reminds self Oblivion is not a bad horror movie* *plays vanilla for 5 minutes* *oh, wait *

There's definitely no problem within the Undelete Refs function itself - works exactly the way it says on the tin (and it didn't futz up OMG - all the refs it had deleted were indeed ignored, so everything looked fine)... Unless you're planning on something else, like, oh, say... somehow integrating it into Bashed Patch? (EDIT after reading through Bash thread: Oh, wait, retirement... EDIT again: REQUESTED.) While I'm at it, how's that extended quest coming along? Okay, I promise I'll stop now.

Well, since I like experimenting with mods alot (one of the reasons I use FCOM) I decided to give this a go aswell. Quite frankly, installing the mod and getting it to work was easyer than solving the quest

So far everything works perfectly fine, although I did have the crashes with OMG, but that was fixed with Wrye bash's Undelete Refs function. Essentially I believe this mod, if used corrctly (as you state in your readme) is stable and shouldn't screw up the game. Even when it underwent a bit of my abuse (shapeshifting myself into mannimarco from Mannimarco Revisited, which turned out to be a bad idea xD) it still went along fine.

All in all Wrye, it's a very fun mod to use as it can be quite cool to just be someone else, to be both evil and good in one game, it's just awesome.

It's stuff like this that keeps this game so enjoyable.