Aldmeri Dominion in Ancient Europe

Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:27 am

Never trust the writings of an imperial. :biggrin:
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Louise Dennis
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

They do not wear armor like that in either Oblivion or Morrowind.
It does feel out of place in Skyrim, I agree with AlbinoDunmer, the armor was added for more people to idenify with and recognize the empire.
I personally like the Stormcloak armor.
The legions and the empire armor is what reminds me of Rome but other than that they are entirely different.

To me, it felt out of place in Oblivion, because the armor looked Roman too in Morrowind.
The Empire does have other resemblances with the Roman Empire other than the clothing; they conquered the "barbarians" in the nords, who eventually started an uprising (Ulfric Stormcloak then reminds me of Vercingetorix).
And please, don't say you can't compare these cultures with real world cultures and such. I started this topic with the idea: if you had to compare the Dominion to a culture, what would it be? Because I always felt they were like the Greek states, if you consider the Empire as the Romans (not that they are completely similar).
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renee Duhamel
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:59 pm

Dunmer = central and east Asian

I don't see this one at all. Care to explain?
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noa zarfati
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:24 am

To me, it felt out of place in Oblivion, because the armor looked Roman too in Morrowind.
The Empire does have other resemblances with the Roman Empire other than the clothing; they conquered the "barbarians" in the nords, who eventually started an uprising (Ulfric Stormcloak then reminds me of Vercingetorix).
And please, don't say you can't compare these cultures with real world cultures and such. I started this topic with the idea: if you had to compare the Dominion to a culture, what would it be? Because I always felt they were like the Greek states, if you consider the Empire as the Romans (not that they are completely similar).
Okay then, what are the similarities that you think the Greeks share with the Aldmeri Dominion? I will debunk them. Think of it as a challenge. :biggrin:
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Rachel Eloise Getoutofmyface
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:50 am

Okay then, what are the similarities that you think the Greeks share with the Aldmeri Dominion? I will debunk them. Think of it as a challenge. :biggrin:

Breaking character... Personally, I agree. The Greek city states at the time were arrogant douches. The Greeks also lead the world with its philosophy and mathematics. If any culture would have magick users, it would have been the ancient Greeks. The armor for the Elves is quite flamboyant. At one time, the Greeks believed they were owed the world. The Greek gods inspired the Roman gods. If the Greeks said a certain god was no longer a god, then the Romans probably would have changed their pantheon. If you want to look at things strictly, then of course not. The armor for the greeks wasn't so flamboyant, but it was flashy with the horse haired helmets. However, in a poetic and loose sense, I feel the Elves with their arrogance and gaudy styles emulate the Greeks. If the Aldmeri Dominion were a nation in Ancient Europe, it would have to be the Greek States which is what the OP asked. If not Greece, then Macedon. If not Macedon, then another Hellenic nation.))
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Cartoon
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:50 am

Actually, during WWII they did. Incidents like the Nanking Massacre make WWII Imperial Japan a much more "genocidal" state than the Dominion has ever been. Also, I was never aware the Thalmor executed thousands of people, I'd say even hundreds was a bit of an overestimation.

In WW2 almost every Nation massacred many people. Even the USA did that in WW2 Hiroshima or Vietnam. So no Nation can say they never did something worse.
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OJY
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:23 pm

So no Nation can say they never did something worse.

Yep, and the Dutch were slave traders... once :blush:
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Conor Byrne
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:46 am

Pretty sure it came from the http://historiaaugustumblr.tumblr.com/post/16916930448/ammianus-marcellinus-describes-the-huns-the-only.

The argument for the Thalmor as imperial Japan is a good one. I could buy it. Still think there's no real equivalent, though.

Well, as I said, my picture is a reconstruction of an ancient Magyar (Hungarian), who are only related to the Huns, therefore it probably only resembles a Hun face. BTW, it's understandable the Romans were biased and I forgive them. :biggrin:
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Nicole Elocin
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:20 pm

In WW2 almost every Nation massacred many people. Even the USA did that in WW2 Hiroshima or Vietnam. So no Nation can say they never did something worse.

Not really, there are plenty of countries that didn't commit mass genocides.
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Natalie Taylor
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:23 pm

Breaking character... Personally, I agree. The Greek city states at the time were arrogant douches. The Greeks also lead the world with its philosophy and mathematics. If any culture would have magick users, it would have been the ancient Greeks. The armor for the Elves is quite flamboyant. At one time, the Greeks believed they were owed the world. The Greek gods inspired the Roman gods. If the Greeks said a certain god was no longer a god, then the Romans probably would have changed their pantheon. If you want to look at things strictly, then of course not. The armor for the greeks wasn't so flamboyant, but it was flashy with the horse haired helmets. However, in a poetic and loose sense, I feel the Elves with their arrogance and gaudy styles emulate the Greeks. If the Aldmeri Dominion were a nation in Ancient Europe, it would have to be the Greek States which is what the OP asked. If not Greece, then Macedon. If not Macedon, then another Hellenic nation.))

I'd say if the Greeks were in TES, they'd definitely be the Dwemer.
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Chase McAbee
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:24 am

Breaking character... Personally, I agree. The Greek city states at the time were arrogant douches. The Greeks also lead the world with its philosophy and mathematics. If any culture would have magick users, it would have been the ancient Greeks. The armor for the Elves is quite flamboyant. At one time, the Greeks believed they were owed the world. The Greek gods inspired the Roman gods. If the Greeks said a certain god was no longer a god, then the Romans probably would have changed their pantheon. If you want to look at things strictly, then of course not. The armor for the greeks wasn't so flamboyant, but it was flashy with the horse haired helmets. However, in a poetic and loose sense, I feel the Elves with their arrogance and gaudy styles emulate the Greeks. If the Aldmeri Dominion were a nation in Ancient Europe, it would have to be the Greek States which is what the OP asked. If not Greece, then Macedon. If not Macedon, then another Hellenic nation.))
EDIT:
Just some quick things I forgot. Many cultures thought they were the best in the world and the most important part of it. There also have been countless arrogant civilizations that treat all others around them like trash. Chinese, Japanese, Greeks, Romans, British, Germans, Vikings, Egyptians, Babylonians etc etc etc.

There were many, much more mystical civilizations than the Greeks, that put a lot more emphasis on magic than the Greeks ever did too. In fact Greeks are probably responsible for much of the debunking of magical practices done in their cities. They were a people of art and logos(logic). Many peoples gods inspired many other peoples gods. In fact the Roman god Jupiter(or Greek Zeus) is the reason the Christian God is usually shown as an old man with a long white/grey beard. If we went back far enough we might find the spark of thought for all gods(assuming whatever god(s) whoever is reading this does not exist of course, naturally we dunno if your gods created everything to seem like it is much older than your creation myths and all that so please do not take offense! Tests of faith!). Maybe that spark WAS a god of some sort, probably the likely case for all of Nirn. Most of the gods in TES can be found worshiped in some form or another anyways. Not that they were necessarily copied.

The Greek City states...there is the first problem. Summerset Isle is a singular Nation. Secondly you pretty much contradict yourself, if the Hellenistic nations can also compare to the Aldmeri Dominion then maybe it is just a case of widespread similarities shared by many different cultures and civilizations throughout history and fiction? The Aldmeri Dominion are even less of a city state though. They are more like an Empire. (on that note is their a Thalmor leader? I don't remember if their is a king or what) The City states of Greece were distinctly different from each other in terms of culture and how they acted. There were a few common things shared by the greeks but there was also A LOT of distinction between city states. Sparta was a landlocked warrior City State with basically enslaved lower classes call Helots that did the everyday work like working the fields for instance, they lived a barebones and plain as they can get existence. They are about as far from the Altmer as you can get. The only similarity is probably the Eugenics deal with them tossing babies but they do that for different reasons than the Altmer. Athens was a Maritime Seaport with tons of emphasis on trade and the higher arts like philosophy and mathematics. Some similarity there, those traits are also shared by countless cities throughout history.

Second point. The Greeks also were not all arrogant, at least nowhere near the degree of the Altmer. Also being Greek was something different from having 'Greek' blood. In other words, if the Greeks were elves and a human was born amongst them he would be Greek, race was never a big issue back in the day, it was all where you were from not what you looked like, Race, as we know it, is a relatively new idea created by Europeans to justify the idea that Native Americans and Africans had no souls so it was okay to use them for whatever they wanted to, even stealing their land and killing them off. Btw the Chinese were historically very xenophobic towards western peoples, even other groups as well with them having stances towards the other countries around them like they were in a position of power. They still, are and a common theme, in today's China(was not always called China btw) at least, is to have a very superior attitude towards non-Chinese people. This is because their government reinforces those ideas regularly and have done so for generations. It is probably worth noting that the Chinese deserve their superior attitude in some respects because they do have a very impressive History.

Which Greek City States would you be talking about specifically for your case btw? I am curious.

Your third point The Greeks hardly wore flamboyant armor. http://www.hellenic-art.com/armour/bodyarmour.htm. Notice all the flamboyant armors are followed by Royal and such. The armor you are thinking of was mostly for show and was not used in battle unless a leader had a taste for the flamboyant and a penchant for death. The point of the Plume that sometimes appeared on their helmets was to signify rank so on the battlefield low rank and file soldiers could identify officers. Most Greek soldiers wore a variety of armor types(mostly plain) and plain helmets. Besides elven armor looks much more like ceremonial platemail to me. Odd that it is classes as light armor. Moonstone must be really light! But that aside armor has very little to do with culture and is entirely superficial. http://www.china-cart.com/bookpic/20117/20117162710.jpg for instance though it is hardly ancient chinese. Looks more like elven armor than any of the Greek armors I have seen. But again that is pointless.

Fourth Point. The Chinese also had a huge impact on philosophy and mathematics as well as many other cultural achievements that could easily rival what the Greeks contributed to history, they did for Asia what the Greeks did for Europe basically and then some, come to think of it so did the various Indian civilizations. To add to that the Phoenicians also contributed to the alphabets of many cultures including the one we are typing in now. The Chinese religious practices also were taken and integrated into various other cultures as well because people always like to copy from the smart guys. In fact you could say the Chinese themselves copied from a society in India to gather a newer form of Religion called Buddhism which was later adapted into various different forms in China, Japan, Korea, Thailand, etc etc..

So yup, Chinese and Greeks share this much at least. Both had their religions copied, somewhat superior attitude towards outsiders and massive cultural achievements that changed the world around them for many years. The Altmer did that too! So did the Nords(human counterpoint to the Altmer, very hostile to all non-nords, created the human presences on Tamriel and freed them from their elven overlords, the Imperials copied from the Altmer and Nordic pantheon and combined them)...

My point is that whatever you pick inevitably has characteristics shared by many cultures.

If the Aldmeri Dominion HAD to be a nation from ancient Europe, I would say they are the Minoans. Just because I can pick out many similarities that make them fit with them. Just like you can do with any civilization if you look hard enough. In the end this exercise is an effort in futility and as soon as you think one of the TES cultures is like a real world culture you will start to lose the idea of what that culture is because you will start drawing parallels that are not there but seem to be.
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Patrick Gordon
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:02 pm

I'd say if the Greeks were in TES, they'd definitely be the Dwemer.
...read more about the Dwemer.
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!beef
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:14 am

Not really, there are plenty of countries that didn't commit mass genocides.

Maybe those who didn't fought in the WW. Fact is that the four greatest Nations USA, Japan, russian and WW2-Germany did war crimes on civilian.
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Jennifer Rose
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:00 am

DarkZeker is correct that when the early Xtain church moved into Great Britian they were in the process to root out Paganism. If a person reads history with an open mind you will see that the Christian religion took alot of Pagan beliefs into to convert the Pagans.
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Jade Payton
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:07 am

DarkZeker is correct that when the early Xtain church moved into Great Britian they were in the process to root out Paganism. If a person reads history with an open mind you will see that the Christian religion took alot of Pagan beliefs into to convert the Pagans.
While that certainly seems to be the case we should not broach that topic in its entirety in this topic. Religious discussion=Banhammer.
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Gavin Roberts
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:26 pm

I can hardly find a parallel for the Aldmeri Dominion as a nation during the Roman Empire. Maybe Carthage during the republic, thats the only time Rome was faced with a power equal to itself both in their prime and was almost wiped out. One cant really even compare Germans to nords because the nords and skyrim were an imperial province, the Germans and Germany were never effectively conquered by the Romans, not that they couldn’t just that they decided it wasn’t worth it. During the Roman empire the only civilized nation to pose somewhat a threat was Persia or Parthian, and neither was a real threat, more of a stomping ground for emperors to gain glory.

Sacking the Parthian or Persian capitol was guaranteed spoils like gold, silver, slaves, and glory, wandering around in the woods of Germany the only spoils were slaves and glory.

I think that the current story of the Empire and Aldmeri Dominion could play out with the empire on its knees (arrow to the knee). I really dont know how it will play out but I dont see the Empire disappearing like some have suggested.
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R.I.P
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:41 am

While the Imperial Legion has a strong roman touch i can't find anything similar to the Altmeri Domination. I never have seen a Nation which wanted to play god or was snobbish like the Altmeri. I think you won't find any Nation which fits to the races. there is also a part which is not fitting to it while a few are.
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Mrs shelly Sugarplum
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:54 am

@Albinodunmer : I truly respect your knowledge of history, are you a historian or something? But to answer your question: I don't know why I feel a similarity between the Aldmeri Dominion and the Greek states, I just do. And J'rahzir told quite a bit about it. Yes, you can apply it to every culture if you try hard, but that will cause an eternal discussion. Also, Carthage seems a good "candidate", especially during the Roman Republic (you know, Hannibal and such, especially at Cannae).

@Magyaronny : I'm Dutch! :P

@yougivingmelipboy? : Dwemer? Explain, please.

@toga : I see the Nords more as the inhabitants of what is now France (or Gauls, if you like): And Imperial province, which eventually stood up against the oppression. In that way, I see Ulfric Stormcloak as Vercingetorix and General Tullius as Gaius Julius Caesar.
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John N
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:58 am

@Albinodunmer : I truly respect your knowledge of history, are you a historian or something? But to answer your question: I don't know why I feel a similarity between the Aldmeri Dominion and the Greek states, I just do. And J'rahzir told quite a bit about it. Yes, you can apply it to every culture if you try hard, but that will cause an eternal discussion. Also, Carthage seems a good "candidate", especially during the Roman Republic (you know, Hannibal and such, especially at Cannae).
I think you are giving me too much credit. I am just a History major. I am not even done with college either. History is a passion of mine though. Just don't ask me for really exact details. I have a fairly good general grasp of most of world history with more or less details depending on each civilization, I hardly know anything about Russia for example other than the very basic and bare-bones timeline of events that brought it to how it is today. Mostly the major ones like Greek, Roman, British, Japanese and Chinese are the areas I can go into depth about though I am still fairly new to Asian history. I would hesitate to call myself an expert on any of them though. Asian history is interesting because a lot of the info is very recent because of the small amount of communication between western and eastern scholars in the past. It can be a challenge digging up facts about Asia from 1000 BCE or prior.

As for why you think they are similar to the Greeks? I think I may know why. Tbh it is probably one of the more apt choices for the Altmer if you HAD to give a comparison to a real world culture that you would likely be aware of, seeing as how Greek history and mythology are easily identifiable and well known. So out of the cultures you would know, you probably know the Greeks as one of the more familiar and they seem to have the most connections with the Altmer out of those cultures you are familiar with. So Greeks = Most similar real world culture that you are aware of that resemble the Aldmeri Dominions basic characteristics. Am I correct?
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Travis
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:07 am

@toga : I see the Nords more as the inhabitants of what is now France (or Gauls, if you like): And Imperial province, which eventually stood up against the oppression. In that way, I see Ulfric Stormcloak as Vercingetorix and General Tullius as Gaius Julius Caesar.

Intresting take, if it plays out like Caesars conquest of Gaul then Tullius will have a few battles with Ulfric but Ulfric will eventually be defeated and taken prisnor to Cyridil for display then executed. In a generation the Nords will be growing wine, getting hair cuts, and trying to be more civilized like Imperials.
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xemmybx
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:28 am

I don't see this one at all. Care to explain?

Not the Dunmer, but the Ashlanders. The yurts and gers thing is very Mongolian. Their nomadic culture is pretty much borrowed entirely from Central Asian steppe peoples, with Assyrian names slapped on top.
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Chrissie Pillinger
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:40 am

Some races were obviously influenced by real life cultures. Some are mixed up, almost purely stereotypical or only influenced a tiny bit, but the influence is obviously there.

Nords: Norse
Imperials: Romans
Redguards: Moors
Khajiits: Gypsies


Khajiit will tell One's fortune should he provide much coin. *sly smile*

((No, the Khajiit aren't Romani (gypsies). There are more Middle-Eastern in my eyes. Someone said Indian, and I could see the Khajiit better as Maratha or Sihk.))

Romani (Gypsies) for the record are ethnic and culturally Indian. They originate from the Thar desert of Rajasthan & southern Punjab region of North west India. They left India shortly after 1000ad due to Islamic invasion when they travelled far west taking refuge in Christian lands.
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Joie Perez
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:08 am

Not the Dunmer, but the Ashlanders. The yurts and gers thing is very Mongolian. Their nomadic culture is pretty much borrowed entirely from Central Asian steppe peoples, with Assyrian names slapped on top.
Mhhhmmm...idk maybe their basic overall looks is Mongolian but the similarities kind of end there imo. A very important part of their society is waiting for the Nerevarine to show up and they seem to have structured some of their society accordingly. I would also argue they have more in common with Native Americans than Mongols. They were slowly over a period of many years forced off their land. They are also conditioned by their environment and the culture that surrounds them. A big part of being an Ashlander is hating the Tribunal and being very Xenophobic. Helps them a bit that they domesticate outlandish animals and use giant bugs for armor pieces. The Mongols were quite different from that. I only see 3 things shared by the Mongols and the Ashlanders. Nomadic, Yurts and Khans.
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Kate Murrell
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:30 pm

nords = nords

altmer = altmer

redguard = redguard

bosmer = bosmer

dunmer = dunmer

arognian = argonian

khajiit = khajiit

imperial = imperial

breton = breton

kamal = kamal

and so on and so forth, i dont see how people draw lines to real world cultures when they are not very similar at all, maybe superficially but in no other way are the similar

This, +1

And yeah, the races of Tamriel aren't based off of races on earth. Maybe the humans are inspired by certain cultures, but nothing is based off of anything. Most of the TES lore behind the races is entirely fantasy.

I read in one thread that the Argonians are the Tamrielic equivalent of Native Americans. Not sure how that works. I wonder what the Dunmer are? Anyone know of any Earthly races that were altered and cursed by an evil deity?
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jasminε
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:45 am

This, +1

And yeah, the races of Tamriel aren't based off of races on earth. Maybe the humans are inspired by certain cultures, but nothing is based off of anything. Most of the TES lore behind the races is entirely fantasy.

I read in one thread that the Argonians are the Tamrielic equivalent of Native Americans. Not sure how that works. I wonder what the Dunmer are? Anyone know of any Earthly races that were altered and cursed by an evil deity?
In their mythologies? There are actually several. Most have them as a reasoning for why people act badly. Christianity being one. Remember the Apple in the Garden of Eden? Got us tossed out of heaven and no longer pure and all that. I would say that altered and cursed us thanks to the devil. But I agree that there are few if any real connections between the Tamrielic races and real world cultures.
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Damian Parsons
 
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