I have no idea. I personally like to think of them as CG dolls (including NPCs).

Even the slightest bit of min/maxing in Skyrim will make the game a cakewalk even on Master.

And "main" or "alt"? The other day I read a post where a guy called that way his characters. Like if he's playing with his "alt" the bandits in Bleak Falls Barrow would tell him "No, this is your alt!, you can't enter here". =/

So I've read this topic and I do agree to a point. There are a lot of gamers out there that are all about min/maxing, and about being better than everyone else. MMO's do in a way create an environment that brings out this competitive behavior. Now I also want to state, as there have been many posts I have read bashing mmo's, especially wow, that I have played wow since release, and could care less about min/maxing. I also was fortunate enough to find a really great guild that could care less about this style of play. We were just there to have fun, enjoy the game and maybe even do a bit of rp. I guess these types of players in mmo's are few and far between but I just want to say we are out there.

Now in regards to Skyrim. I absolutely love it, bugs and flaws and all, because of the fact it's single player(and an Elder Scrolls Game), and its an entirely different beast to an MMO. I like both styles and you can enjoy both styles of play. People will learn this eventually and if not, then let them complain, because it really doesn't matter. Everyone has their own idea of what is fun. In community based game you just need to find like minded people. In a single player game, just enjoy the game and not worry about what other people are doing.

Anyways, I'm going to shush it now, because I'm tired and not entirely sure if any of that made any sense. :

I love how forward planning has become a WoW mindset and a negative thing.

Theres over 250 perks in the game and even if you don't care about min-maxing some of them outright svck, with only 81 perks available it's up to them to plan out if they can really afford those few points in pickpocket for 100 extra carry weight or it'll cost them some cool ability for thier mage character from the magic trees.

If anything it's more BS's fault for introducing perks and doing it the way they have, simalar to wow where when you choose one of the 3 trees (3 areas of classes) you can't master them all, especially if you want to put a few points in another "spec" because you like the ability but you have to take a bunch of perks you don't want to get to it, in some areas it worse some of the trees are so mixed up it's like choosing to be a beastmaster but having to take a markman perk to get the one you want.

As for min-maxing yeah leave the lording over people out of single player game, it's bad enough in mmo's, at least if your going to whine at the hunter for doing 2.5k consitently that is 3rd of the charts of 10 people because your hunter can do 500 more apparently, pass a proportional amount to the mage thats only doing 200 period, they can help and show why issues are happening but are frequently misused and have no place in a single player game, if someone likes to have thier fireballs doing the most damage possible and feel almighty in a single player game it's thier choice as is if they are happy enough to fling 50 fireballs instead, it doesn't affect you.

Well clearly there were no perks until Skyrim....

Perks in Skyrim isn't about min/maxing as people are suggesting, its to plan out what your character is going to become. The calculator is useful because it prevents you from adding into useless or bugged perks since you aren't able to refund the perk point. Min/maxing in Skyrim is basically maxing out enchanting/blacksmithing/alchemy. Otherwise, everything else just reinforces how you play your character.

I can understand the OP's friends from their perspective of not wanting to start over once they get 30+ hours in and they realize they messed up their perks.

We should be playing these games for one reason: to have fun. And if some people think it's fun to plan a character in advance who am I or anybody else to say they're doing it wrong? It's not the way I like to play but, then again, the way I like to play is not fun for them.

I would not like to be criticized for my style of roleplaying, therefore I do not like to criticize another person for using spreadsheets and calculators. If both of us are having fun, then both of us are playing the game correctly.

lecturing little [censored]heads on how and why they are little [censored]heads is about as useful and satisfying as reading the comments on any foxnews.com article about Barack Obama.

They did tell us that math would be useful in the real world.

"hardcoe' and "WoW' used in the same sentence.

Now that's funny!

I love how so many are saying that, that mindset is so awful, judgemental and think if you don't play it a certain way your doing it wrong. I don't know if you noticed but 90% of this forums members is about judging people for skill, blaming them for dumbing down the game cause of skill or not having a good enough pc and bullying them for having an opinion. Thread only proves the point by saying that, that mindset is wrong and they are playing the game wrong/ruining it for themselves. The thought of someone using a talent calculator has lead to abuse towards MMO's players, to WoW players in general and several ways people have always enjoyed playing single player games, wouldn't surpise me to find out there was a min-maxer of pong when it came out.

This is why I quit wow. The bragging of arena ratings is just stupid and people that do are extremely annoying.

I'm not really a TES fan, skyrim is my first in the series but that doesn't mean I can't see what is wrong with applying the MMO-attitude to every other game - If you gave it a bit of thought I bet you could see it as well.

I'm annoyed by people who compare everything to wow and blame everything on it. The game is more casual than the previous ones? oh its coz wow and cod noob fans hurr durr. The game has some features that were also in wow? Uh huh copied from wow obviusly. Someone suggest a multiplayer possibility to skyrim? Uh duhhuh you want make skyrim wow copy (i dont support the idea but i dont support your arguments either).

It actually annoys me when they say "toon". I've actually pointed it out once how much it annoys me. I mean, in what way is an avatar a toon? Yeah, it's CG, but that doesn't make it a toon. It's not animated like toon. If it was cell shaded, I could probably understand, but it's not.


I wouldn't call all WoW players "vile and reprehensible people" though by and large they do have a reputation. I've known WoW players to completely overreact to not being able to play, to the point where they are actually causing harm to themselves and others; either directly or indirectly.

Addicts?

the only mmo i kow that would have players that would like skyrim is mabonogi, and that is because it is basicly the online version of it (without all the interesting lore that is) with all the things to do other than fighting (when i do play i spend my time making music, even though i can only compose one song [lillium] i can play songs pretty well )

You can mini-max in more than just wow. Did it all the time with D&D. Always PO'ed the DM. Yes, those paper things called books and using your imagination. Those were the days.

Oh and .....FF > wow.

ROFL, i'd want to punch them.

As if a calculator is needed for Skyrim perks..not exactly complicated, pick your end level, pick some perks.

Anyone who needs a calculator for that is either truly terrible at basic math, or doesn't get the game lol.

With a TES game I will often look over the game system and come up with a character that fits within that particular game's system and go from there. I've found that if you make characters that don't fit with the setting, game system, etc. then you just won't enjoy yourself as much.

Note: I got the game 11/11 so I didn't wait. I'd love some "wasted" perks back but that's life.

One reason I got sick of WoW was how all the guilds pretty much forced specs on all the classes that were going into dungeons. The game was impossible to play the way you wanted. Druids had to be a certain spec of resto, mages had to be a certain spec of arcane, ect ect. It svcked. I would never want to play Skyrim that way. These people waiting for someone else to tell them the best way to utilize their points are mindless drones with no imagination or thought process of their own. WoW does that to people.

Look at all the 1k rated nubs getting mad, ahhhh reminds me of the old days, learn to play or don't play at all, k thanks

I have played WoW too, alot for a long time. In Skyrim there is no need for 'calculate talent trees to optimize maximum dps'. In Skyrim you have fun and play the game how YOU want to play it. No weekly raids in groups that tell you you need 'so much spellpower or this and that achievement' to enter the group. No in Skyrim you can choose from any talent that suits you and still become powerful. Don't compare Skyrim to WoW, simply because you can't. It is a totally different kind of game. So if your friends decide not to play Skyrim just because there is no talent tree calculator available, they are just beeing ignorant. Even in WoW you shoudn't be relying on a talent tree calculator but find out what is the best dps for yourself. Skyrim is all about free choices, what you like and what you decide to play.

"The old days", when you were 14, as opposed to 16.

It boggles my mind how people can break a game mechanic, and come here and complain about it to nerf it and say they are bored of the game. I admit, I use smithing, alchemy and enchanting. Do I think any three of them are overpowered? No. I use alchemy for potions to heal or damage, enchanting to get a slight edge(reduce restoration cost by 10% or something on a helmet, fortify health 20 points on an armor etc) and use smithing to make that weapon I think looks good to keep it competitive, plus keep RP friendly armors viable, such as Stormcloak armors and steel plate armors. Yet people will abuse the game to the max, fortify their enchanting by 234802938% by something I still yet don't know and break the game, or fortify equipment to get 100% spell reduction for destruction or something. It's your fault, so quit trying to break the game for ME, just because I play fair. One reason I don't like signing into Xbox LIVE without reading patch notes, just in case Beth listens to these min maxer people who try to make the 1337est character out there.