noone likes thalmor mages. not even thalmor warriors/archers like thalmor mages.

Whilst I understand the comparisons people make I really wish real life things like this would be left out at times. I'm Jewish and lost over three quarters of my family. People I will never meet. I'm still hated to this day simply for being born or automatically put into the eternal victim category. I really hate my people being used as an example every darn time a make believe race is put to the sword. I cannot even begin to explain how annoying that is.

I like RPing a Thalmor because it's just fantasy. Its easy for me to seperate the two and I can just as well RP a knight in shining armor or a complete psycho.
I dont see the the Thalmor as nazis at all. The nazis killed for whole other reasons than the metaphysical ones the Thalmor have.

How can you even begin to compare a fantasy setting with multiple gods/demons and what have with reality?
We have our own mythologies but they are just that; myths. In TES these things are "real" and people interact with them. The Thalmor are best compared to hardline Gnostics who see the physical world as a trap. In their eyes they are liberators, returning everything to its perfect pre-physical state.

Calling them nazis is a simplistic comparison and calling the others "their Judaism" dishonors the memory of my relatives. Im not angry or b-hurt or want everything peachy politically correct just asking people will be more mindful of what they compare fantasy things with.

That was part of my basis for my earlier statement that "Unless you're a eugenically produced Summerset native, you won't be going anywhere in the Thalmor".

EDIT: After reading up a little bit on Gnosticism, that does fit better... to the Psijic Endeavour that Shor/Lorkhan wants everyone to walk and that Talos actually did walk. Talos fits into the role of the one to bring gnosis quite well, and Lorkhan/Shor into the role of the Demiurge, especially in that more elven religions see him as evil).

The Thalmor... still not quite. They seem to have some kind of nihilistic beliefs on top of that. They seem to want to escape the imperfect world not by gnosis, but by basically erasing it from existence.

Their more physical actions to that end are still notably fascistic in nature, however. Racial superiority, imperialism, total control, purges, etc...

In any case, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OmnicidalManiac.

One more thing. Why the concern with racial purity? Men worship the gods, well, because men are men and the gods are Gods. The Dunmer worship the Daedra as superior beings through almost a contract system, either by co-beneficial agreements, or because they are tested and better themselves through the trials that beset them. The Thalmor on the other hand, believe themselves to be right up there, Aedra means ancestors, after all. They seem to have conveniently forgotten that men descended from Elnohfey the same as they did. We are gods, so it seems, so let's get rid of those of our own who don't remind us of that fact quite so much.

The Thalmor are on my KOS list. Even on my Altmer mage.

The only anologs is their distaste of other species. That's it. Nazism is so much more than just blindfolded racism. It's a political ideology, a way of life, an economic model and was close to becoming a religion. Let's see why the Enclave does not compare with Nazism:

- The Enclave is democratic by principle, while Nazis detested the very idea.
- The Enclave has full gender and racial equality among humans, something that the Nazis once again opposed to the core.
- The Enclave allows women to serve side-by-side with men in armed forces. Nazis did not allow this, even in their last moments.
- The Enclave takes pride in America, while the Nazis viewed America as the root of all evil.
- The Enclave is carries on American capitalist values. Nazi Germany employed an economic system of Corporatism, which meant domination of large, state-supervised corporations with little room for personal initiative.
- The Enclave considers itself the only humans on earth and classify mutants as other species, while the Nazis targeted individuals they considered human but still sub-human.

And much more.
Most of the above apply for the Thalmor as well, though there is little we know of the faction.

EDIT: The reason I'm dragging elements of other games here is simply that I resent Nazi comparisons where they do not apply.

From what I remember, men themselves don't believe that they are descended from the Aedra, but created by them. So men believe that their existence is tied to creation, whereas the Altmer believe that if it were not for Lorkhan and the mortal world, that they would still exist or would now exist as immortal, perfect beings. Something like that.

Odds are, men and elves did come from the same source originally (Ehlnofey), but they have different views on how they came to be.

The Thalmor believe that just as Talos is holding the mortal world together, the existence of men is also a threat to unmaking it, as another man could do the same thing as he did. Not to mention that men have a different view of the world, as they see the trials and tribulations in life as a way of learning love and therefore having the potential for true salvation. That's what I took from the discussions on the lore threads.

But the racial purity also goes back to the Thalmor's belief that they are the most purest, truest form of the Aldmer, the original elves who existed before they split off into other elven races.

I could easily apply some, completely refuting the assertion that the Enclave are not a nazi expy (especially the america-centric stuff... they hated America, but they sure as heck loved Germany)... but this is an Elder Scrolls forum, not a Fallout forum. And I'm tired of bandying the word about anyway.



Suddenly, Heimskr's ranting about "Aye, love! LOVE!" makes so much more sense... It makes me wonder if he's maybe a physical avatar of Talos a la Wulf or the Prophet from KOT9.

Just going to copy/paste something I posted the other day, which explains my character's attitude to the Thalmor a little, or what happens when a little racially pure Summerset princess doesn't get on with daddy :

Er, you do realize that if the Thalmor reach their ultimate plans, that the Elder Scrolls Universe will cease to exist? You really want to play a RPG with noncorporeal, immortal spirits in an unchanging spirit universe? That's if the Thalmor don't end up destroying time and all existance completely?

Not to mention, most of the other Altmer don't want what the Thalmor want, never mind all the Bosmer and Dunmer.

The Enclave is democratic by principle in the mannet that they will only allow their supporters to vote because they believe they are the only "pure" humans left.
Gender-equality have little-to-nothing to do with this discussion, and is likely more of a political-correctness in the game-development.
The Nazis took pride in Germany and only view America as evil because it opposed them. Same as the Fallout US Government see the chinese as evil because they are communists.
What economy they follow have noting to do with this discussion, since it does not have anything to do with the comapprison of the factions.
The Enclave see the people of the wasteland who have been exposed to radiation/FEV(all humans except the Vault Dwellers and Enclave) impure and below human.

The Thalmor took power by coup and taking credit for the end of the Oblivion Crisis.
The Thalmor have eradiacted all oppsing political ideas in Alinor.
The Thalmor see the human races as something to be destroyed for their benefit.
The Thalmor probably take pride in Alinor.

Yeah, no similarities between the factions

I like.

So you have a character who is Altmer who hates the Thalmor too? Ha, ha, me as well.

After I heard Legate Fasendil's story about how the Thalmor killed Altmer dissidents in Hammerfell, I decided to pretend that my character had relatives who were killed by them too. She has a nice collection of Thalmor armour that she enchants and wears... from all the Thalmor she kills.

Reminds me more of a feudal Earth society than anything from the twentieth century, in a way. Rule by divine right; not oppressing and killing because strength, both of arms and through sublimation of the self to state, gives you the right, but because that's apparently how it just should be by dint of birth.

I usually just leave them clothed and lying in the middle of the road for all to see... unless I unrelentingly forced them off a cliff edge (in which case it's too much effort).


Also on the little story that Zen wrote... I remember reading somewhere that the mothers of Dragonborn are avatars of Alessia, the one that made the dragonborn pact to begin with... so the oblivious mother would be such an avatar if it's true.

The Thalmor are Mutant Commies!
The American government will never side the Reds!

"One Enclave, One Empire, Now and Forever!"

I haven't read about Dragonborn mothers being avatars of Alessia before. But if it is true, then that's pretty hilarious. Some pure bred Altmer on Summerset Isle being the avatar of St. Alessia, the human woman who headed the slaves' revolt from the elven Ayeids, and who became the first empress of the first human empire!

This thread has been a great help to me as a first time Elder Scrolls player, and your post is very much like the story of my own Altmer mage that I'm experiencing on my second playthru of TESV. I had a problem with my character not being able to join or side with the Thalmor, but this thread has reminded me about being dragonborn.

I played a Nord Stormcloak on my first playthru, and kept Ogmund's Amulet of Talos for myself. After a long time I got a notification saying I'd failed that quest (or succeeded in the eyes of a Stormcloak) and I committed it to memory so that my High Elf would play that quest the other way.

I did that early in the game and handed the Amulet of Talos to Ondolemar, but apart from a nice compliment nothing more came of it. My Altmer mage has since killed Ondolemar in The Purge of Markarth following the Forswarn Conspiracy bug - a glitch that became part of the canon.

So I'm a bit more relaxed about Ursana the Altmer mage not being able to join the Thalmor after reading this thread, but it won't change her overly 'High Elf esteem'

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7142/6615750849_81325f5261.jpg

The Thalmor seem specifically designed to grate on the players nerves and patience. I won't be surprised if some of the DLC for the game is involves them in some way, or if overthrowing the Thalmor ends up being the plot of TES VI. They are essentially antagonists of another story, and are ultimately responsible for the civil war in Skyrim. Even if the Thalmor had noble goals (which they don't), their smug, patronizing, antagonistic attitude makes it impossible to actually like any of the Thalmor.

Suffice it to say, the only reason I don't slaughter Thalmor patrols on the road out of principle is for the fact that I don't need to be getting attack by every squad in the wildness while hunting or whatnot. I imagine when I make a save that sides with the Stormcloaks, I'll execute them all out of principle then.

I don't think it's actually about liking them but more about being fascinated with them. Obviously their goals aren't goals I as a player would like. Seeing the whole of Mundus gone is pretty much the end of TES. However in a mythological sense I understand their goals and whether they are right or not depends on the character I play. And no I do not think all Altmer agree with what they do, or even if they agree that they want to go about it the same way.

I think their ideas of racial purity of the Altmer race is perfectly in line with their beliefs. Physicality and life is all about change and evolution whereas their perfect spiritual state is a static one (as far as I understand it at least). They might have physical bodies now but they at least try and keep them as close as possible to their original state as to not further evolve, or in their eyes de-evolve, further. Bosmer and Dunmer are therefore obviously considered impure to them, seeing how much they changed and are further "chained to to Mundus". Still they are much better than Men who are even further bound(can't really think of a better term) and actively worship Lorkhan!
The Thalmor aren't nihilists in that they seek to destroy everything, they simply want to return to the "womb". Others don't see Mundus as a handicap but a way to further themselves. Who are right depends on what version of the creation myth you chose to believe. In this regard the Thalmor are fascinating though I wonder if the common Thalmor foot soldier truly understand their goals. How much of this is common knowledge? Maybe the Thalmor simply stir up old resentments, Summerset becoming an Imperial Province was a harsh blow to the pride of the Altmer.

The Thalmor were always a minority group so I wouldn't be surprised to see them, yet again, move to the background and the Dominion split asunder. I just hope it's done in a lengthy DLC or the next TES game instead of off screen.

If I remember correctly, Altmer on Summerset Isle (now called Alinor), considered anyone who had left to go to the mainland (other than for Aldmeri Dominion interests), were not considered to be "pure" Altmer. Since any pure, true Altmer would never want to leave Alinor in the first place, thereby "proving" that individual's "impurity" by even having a desire to do so.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, any Altmer who was not already a Thalmor before coming to Skyrim would be considered tainted anyway, and not likely to be allowed to join. This is probably why the Thalmor do not treat other high elves who are not Thalmor any differently than non-high elves.

The main reason I dislike the Thalmor so much is because I always really liked the high elves culture. The Thalmor are extreme fanatical versions of one end of high elven society, who came to power in a bloody coup by killing the rightful leaders of Summerset Isle. And I am afraid that the actions of the Thalmor have/will end up hurting Alinor and the high elves in the end.

Of COURSE Talos is a Divine! Otherwise he couldn't bestow any blessings or have helped the Divine Crusader banish Umaril into the depths of Oblivion for eternity!

Ditto, my friend. Ditto

At least they have got style. That completely excuses the mfrom their actions against Tamriel

I'm just quoting you because I like the dragon thing

I have several Thalmor hit-squads that are actively hunting me down, it started when they attacked me just because I didn't scurry away from one of their patrols quick enough, that I had to wipe-out the worthless lot of them...Along with the DB, I'll never be bored on the road...Plus they got great gear!

I have yet to make up my mind entirely concerning the Thalmor. Initially they sound pretty bad, but in the end I've mostly read the opinions of others and it doesn't sound like we have all the facts. Ignoring the whole Undo-the-world thing, they sound similar to Altmer Stormcloaks in some respects. Both want to get rid of lesser peoples in their rightful lands, just that the Stormcloaks want to get rid of the ones who aren't "true Nords" and the Thalmor wants to get rid of anyone who isn't a "true Altmer".

There's always some bias involved in these sort of things too, depending on where you feel at home. For instance, the Mer-butchering spirit of the Nords seem to be a bit more accepted here on the forums, just like how you can find a lot of bias in real life. You can have the same atrocities commited by 2 groups, and have it overlooked when one group does it and then condemn the other group when they do the same.

I liked them, until I got a sword in my chest...

No I don't like the Thalmor, thats why I joined the Stormcloaks.