Again, playing devil's advocate here. ME2 was literally unplayable at release for a "good number" of people who purchased it.

Does anyone know how many members there are on Beth's forums? I'll guarantee that it's not equivalent to the 5 million games of FNV that were shipped out.

The vast majority of people don't post on the forums, nor do they write in to the games media or the game company when they think they got a dud deal.

I think any methodology to judge whether the bulk of people do or don't have issues will be problematic, same for 'popularity contest' type awards...people who think a game svcks won't necessarilly vote.

So, a lot of awards are in-house type industry awards, would it be fair to say? If so, the question is, where is the award for the 'Best Business Lunch'? and 'Best Write Up After A Business Lunch'?

Sorry, a rather cynical tongue in cheek poke at the industry...(and getting my $88 worth)..

Um - no, I wouldn't determine that at all. And if you want to chest thump about experience with gaming forums - I've been gaming since 1972 - yes, that's 1972. (lol not 74 - I played the original Magnavox Odyssey, released in '72). I've frequented a few game troubleshooting forums myself. I've also beta tested a bunch of (PC) games (officially that is, not post release). So, like you, I have a bit of perspective.




I'll hedge my bets. And bet my left arm (not my right one- I need it), that FONV is fraught with more gameplay issues than ME2. By far. I'm certain. But what we'd need is official "bug reports" from the game devs - and you and I both know, that ain't ever gonna happen.





And I'm sorry I am completely missing your point here since it in no way applies to anything I have said - I've played ME2 and I'm trying to play FONV.




Well, I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree. I don't feel any game that is laden with bugs, bugs which consistently prevent people from playing it, on a CONSOLE specifically (since you don't have the hardware and driver issues that you do with a PC) - should win a major game award.

Console games should all be playable on release. Bugs and glitches - happen. Complete unplayability? - Inexcusable.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. I'm in no way saying that NV has issues. Trying to quantify the percentage of people having major issues is a slope that gets very slippery very quickly.


I agree completely. IMO awards like the famed "GOTY" awards are largely a form of post-release marketing as much as they are legit accolades. There are a few reviewers that I know tend to share my tastes, but other than that it's just a bunch of people sharing their opinions.

Sorry - can you verify that with some reviews on the game, noting it, specifically, to be a buggy game?


Thanks.

Maybe best storyline of the year then?

Can it really be best RPG of the year when the same game got released as Fallout 3 a couple years ago?

I can't remember when FFVII got re-released for the PSN, but if it was this year, it should win. Even if it wasn't, still winner.

I just honestly can't bring myself to see how this game can be broken for so many people. All of my friends and I have experienced literally zero gamebreaking bugs besides a few crashes here and there, many of which caused by conflicting mods.

And the radio thing? Again, nothing.

I and every person I know in real life who owns this game must have some magical amazing computer that doesn't suffer from any bugs, that or you people are overreacting.

How do you know this? Have you talked with the massive majority?

Mods and computers??? what are these things???

I actually had alot of problems with ME2 months after it came out. Specifically not being able to buy fuel and that some of the "powers" wouldn't work at all, and sometimes when I would probe a planet for resources, despite it saying Rich, there would be no resources to speak of on the planet. Some were serious issues, others were minor things that would "fix itself" over time.

Or, just maybe, the issues are happening with greater frequency on other platforms? ::cough:: Like PS3? ::cough::

So, let me ask you, did any of these bugs prevent you completely, from playing the game?

And which platform did you play on?

The fuel bug screwed me over halfway through, but thats about it. I play it on the Xbox 360 also.

And that, folks, is Swaney putting the proof in the pudding....

Issues that affect only PC's could be explanable by different rig builds or configurations, but these little nasties are across all platforms.

I don't think we need to go down the "...over-reacting..." - "No, I'm not..." path...we all know that some people have issues, some don't.

I think the game is worth awards, not necessarilly some awards, but awards nevertheless....

I can say this since I had my first gaming session yesterday where I didn't get a crash, freeze or lockup....I had to check my update status.

Then VATS died on me and so did my character...and I lost an hour's game time because I was lulled into a false sense of security....lol....

Fair enough. I also played on the 360. Let me ask you - honestly, when you went to troubleshoot this (I'm assuming you did), were there many others on the 360 with the same issue? Personally I don't recall it, but, since I didn't have it, I wouldn't be "attuned" to that particular problem.

Again, the issue isn't that games will have bugs. They will. I'm sure ME2 did (in fact, I got the "save game" bug - but this was noticeable early, and easily fixed.). However, I'm 99.99% certain that ME2 is not going to be known for it's bugs in the way that FONV will be.

:)

Yeah, I asked a bunch of my friends if they had the problems. A few of them said they did, and said that I should just start a new game, so I did. Didn't have that problem again though, like most of the problems I had with my first playthrough in New Vegas I no longer have on my third playthrough.

Hold on there. No, not chest thumping. I have a sick fascination with trying to help people out in gaming tech forums so I spend more time in them than most sane people do. Did you see the ME2 forums the month after it was released? I promise they were just as active as the NV tech forums here. The point I'm making is that this is typical and doesn't convey any real perspective on how buggy a game is overall.


I get it. I don't disagree that this is likely to be true. We don't have any numbers to refute or support that, though, so presuming to be able to quantify these things is unrealistic. Millions of copies of the game were sold. Can either of us come up with a percentage of those copies whose owners are having game-breaking problems?


My point is that pointing at something's "reputation" for something as evidence in a debate is akin to equating hearsay with fact.


That was kinda my point. People have different perspectives on things, so we have no choice but to agree to disagree. Given the number of people having crash issues with Oblivion and FO3 I expected the same from NV. Given the scripting complexities involved in making a game tracking as many details as NV I expected some of the types of quest and companion bugs I've seen as well. That doesn't excuse them, but it softened my personal perspective on them. You see it differently, and that's fine. The choice by the QA team and the publisher to release the game before QA was complete was a horrible one. That said, I still don't think the people that did their jobs very well in the creation of the game deserve to be recognized for their achievements any less because of it. That's just my perspective.


Yes. When I was unable to run ME2 at all on two different PCs I found it to be inexcusable. Until I found a workaround. Then I forgot about it and moved on. Still thought it was a great game, too, despite the fact that a rather large sampling of people on the Bioware forums were having the same game-breaking issue that I was.


No, but I have certainly read plenty reviews for games that don't have a "reputation" for being buggy that contained complaints about the game being buggy.

Anyway, you missed my point. It's my fault...I tend to get lost in way-too-detailed explanations that take me off on tangents. Let me try again. I wasn't at any time arguing whether or not this game or that is buggy or not. I'm saying that, using the criteria you've presented, if you had the experience that I had with ME2 and looked at the activity in the forums during the first month after release you would be forced to come to the same conclusion about ME2 that you have about NV. Whether you'd be right or wrong, it's not a sound basis for making claims about "the majority" of people having major problems or not. In other words, none of these things are evidence. Yes, NV is a buggy game. Ok? I'm not denying that in any way.

Really? This game deserves all 3 of those awards. Are you really going to insinuate this game was bad? The only bad part of the game was the bugs, and a lot of them are fixed. Its still easy to over look the bugs that aren't fixed. This game is epic, and always will be.

That's odd. I just did a search for "fuel bug" on the Bioware forums - and nothing came up such as you describe.

Perhaps you underestimate me. I'd never judge a game, based on my singular experience. When I have issues with a game, I do my research. And actually, we are comparing apples and oranges in the sense that you are arguing from a PC perspective, whereas I am arguing (at this point) from a console perspective.

And either way - I guarantee you, in terms of sheer unplayability - I would have not come to the same conclusions with ME2.

My particular issues are with this game being unplayable ON A CONSOLE.

That, imo - is inexcusable.

:)

Maybe it was just me, but it happened once. Made the game crash constantly after that though, so I had to restart.

Maybe just you, and happening just once, isn't what I'm talking about

I'm not doing any kind of "estimating" of you. I don't presume to know anything about you. :shrug:


Ok...again, if you looked at the ME2 tech forum your research would have told you that a lot of people were experiencing some major and minor bugs. Again, claiming to have an idea what percentage of players are having these problems is where I begin to have difficulty swallowing.


That's only if you think I'm trying to argue about how buggy this or that game is, which I'm not.


Does not compute. You're telling me that if you couldn't play the game at all due to a major bug and saw the tech forums full of people having similar problems you wouldn't come to the conclusion that the game had problems? That is exactly the criteria you're using to come to that conclusion about NV. You lost me. :unsure:


*sigh* How many times do I have to point out that I agree that it was a mistake to release the game before QA was complete? We're not having the same discussion here.

Anyway, what's making it unplayable and what percentage of people are having the issue?

Does the fact that the publisher pulled the game out of the oven before it was done cooking mean that the people that made the game didn't do a good job? The criteria that people use to determine whether or not they think a game is "good" is going to vary a lot from person-to-person.

Just because it didn't show up on the search function for the ME2 forums (which the mods there probably delete old threads to save space), doesn't mean nobody else had the problem. Hell, some people come on here complaining about problems I have never even heard of, and that most people have not come across.

Um... ok - I just plugged in the word "unplayable" into the Bioware ME Xbox forums - and there's ONE thread with ONE reply.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/107/index/4693176

Try plugging that word into this forum's search engine.

:)

ps - note the title of that thread is ALMOST unplayable