Actually iirc she was beloved by most of the empire including some of the jarls who ruled skyrim back then and her 46 year rule was said to be one of the most glorious times tamriel had and much of her work was repair several damaged areas of war and making new alliances with former enemies, but yea she did end up dying and her death became the equivalent of the JFK assassination in Tamriel because most of the empire suspected it was really an assassination.

And of course Celan didn't read my whole post and instead chose to pick out my topic sentence without referncing or countering any of the points I made. Therefore I'll end this debate now as my reasoning, regardless of its merit, will just be ignored.

I did read it. Nothing else was relevant.

Yes because lore and evidence that proves that the empire is much more accepting of elves than skyrim is irrelevant.
edit: I presented a psychological argument (I'm a licensed counselor and soon-to-be psychiatrist) and a historical argument (I'm an avid reader of elder scrolls books and have followed the lore for years now) to prove that MOST bosmer would side withthe empire if they had to choose. That's all I've got. So I'm done now.

You are both kinda right, the empire is very tolerant towards elves but Talos did goto extremes to conquer the Summerset Isles and used the Numidium to oppress the altmers at first.

Tell me counselor. When someone promises to look after you and the moment you come into trouble abandons you, do you just easily forgive it? Or does it tend to cause lasting issues?

He was no more extreme than any other empire. He just had better weapons. In fact, numidium prevented drawn out warfare. It ended things quick and immediately without drawn out casualties. He even avoided using it on blackmarsh. Still this is irrelevant to the discussion. We're talking about bosmer, not which side is inherently better (both have pros and cons)

Whatever differences there are between Cyrodiil and Skyrim are negligible. Elves are integrated in Skyrim society, too, especially Bosmer and Altmer. Nords founded the empire along with Cyrodiils, but Nords can't be trusted to rule one province without imperial nannying? And none of your bullet points change the fact that "we're in charge now, fall in line or else" is the basis of imperial rule. I don't know of any evidence to suggest that Valenwood is going to leap back in the empire's arms if the Dominion is pushed back.

As I said from the beginning, you can choose to play a pro-imperial elf, but it's by no means a given, especially with the state the empire is in now- as the player gets to see up close and personal in Helgen.

The empire lost valenwood. We're not sure exactly how the government and people of valenwood reacted at first. We know some fought back but that others accepted the aldmeri dominion. Now I'm actually not sure if they abandoned valenwood or not. They did abandon hammerfell but I'm not sure it's clear about what happened in Valenwood and how the empire lost it. If you know something I dont then I'll concede that point. Either way, a bosmer living in skyrim, a land known for its hatred of elves, likely wouldn't throw their hat in with a rebellion that would result in a race known for their xenophobia ruling a country. If you were a foreigner living in a land with a history of hatred toward your people, and you know SOME of them are openly racist, would you prefer an overarching government that has a history of integrating your people into society, or would you take a chance on a government run by the natives, particularly after seeing the open xenophobia that race exhibits (khajiit not allowed in cities, argonians not allowed in windhelm, dunmer's called "squatters" even though their people have more jobs than the nords in the city). I think, from that perspective you'd pick the empire most likely.

Still, if you know exactly what happened in Valenwood then I could understand your point. Otherwise, I think my point stands.

Well nords have ruled skyrim on there own before...but most accounts of showing their rule tends to be filled with mentions of in fighting and holds attacking each other and some tyrant taking over skyrim, for example Olaf one-eye.

Looking at uesp and the somewhat less reliable TESwiki, it would seem that the empire didn't abandon valenwood. In fact they fought back against bosmer who supported the dominion until the dominion armies drove the empire out. There's a differenxe between losing and abandoning. Hammerfell was abandoned, not Valenwood.

They pulled out of Valenwood the same year it was attacked in 4e29. Not once did they attempt a counteroffensive. They were content to leave it with the dominion. It is currently 4e201.

Riften has the more bosmer than all other cities in skyrim combined(7/12). None are oppressed. They aren't integrating with nordic society?

Should I start listing bad emperors and time periods when imperial rule has broken down? It'll be a long list.

Well I was kind of mentioning in order from most oppressive. Also when did the stormcloaks have more non nords in their houses? I must have missed something because I recall them staying relatively even in the non nords in the house. As I had said they are not out to destroy foreigners, but they like them far less than the imperials. Two example are the alchemist mentioned before and Thongvor Silver-Blood who is much more aggressive against forsworn and wishes to enslave them in cidna mine(not that they actually deserve any better though).

Pretty sure this occured at the same time political chaos was occurring at the capital after ocate was assassinated by the thalmor. Not sure how you expect them to rally a counter offensive with their heads cut off. I might need to check dates, but I'm pretty sure that by the time Mede took control and established order, the thalmor had already fortified their control over valenwood. Going then would have just gotten them slaughtered.

Laila Law-Giver has several Bosmer in her household. Sorli the Builder has an Argonian steward, the only time you see an Argonian in a jarl's household. There is a Dunmer steward in Winterhold, though I believe he also serves the imperial jarl if they take over.

I am not sure which alchemist you mean- Arcadia? She just defensively says that she's lived in Skyrim 20 years and isn't going anywhere. I don't recall dialogue that people were trying to push her out, or mistreating her. And as far as mistreatment of Forsworn, have you listened to the conversation between Igmund and his steward? Igmund wants to kill them all and let the gods sort them out.

Like I said, what differences there are between imperial Nords and Stormcloaks are negligible. It's the Stormcloak holds that have the most non-Nords, and though you do see tensions and have the odd xenophobe, it's by no means universal and the non-Nords are pretty integrated. The Dunmer live in enclaves, because that's the agreement that was worked out with them after Vvardenfell.

If your elf sides with the Stormcloaks if the game allowed it, the Nords would kick you out of Skyrim which is one of the reason behind the Civil War.

They want a Nord only Skyrim..just to get overrun by the Dominion but that is a different story.

You can keep saying this as many times as you want, it doesn't make it any less a purely unsubstantiated assertion- which is in fact contradicted by the Stormcloak leaders' dialogue.

I understand the question is specifically about lore, but (as some of these posts show) choosing the side in a foreign country's civil war is going to be a personal choice.

People are not generic representations of their race, in any case, and their decisions will be personal, emotional and relative to their own life experience and personality. Even if there's a consensus about which side the majority of patriotic Bosmers in Valenwood would choose, it doesn't have to have any bearing on the choice of an individual character who is living in Skyrim.

Once again the people who are insecure about their choices have to derail great threads

If your RPing then it is entirely up to you it's an indivual choice. I have 3 Bosmer's one supports the storm cloaks ones an imperial and other is a serial killer who doesn't care about the civil war.

The first fled vallenwood and fought with the empire in the hopes of taking fight the thalmor distorying he utter despises the dominion due to the purges and violating the green pact by widening the roads.

He fought in the battle of the red ring and believed the war had turned this was it the legion had crushed the dominion, soon they would drive the reminates from empire then take back valenwood, instead the empire signed the WGC a betrayal to him he cannot except peace

By signing the WGC to him the empire is no different then those traitors in vallenwood who sided with dominion and purged many of his friends and family .... Those that attempted to purge him. He cares little for skyrim or the empire the storm cloaks are willing to fight The thalmor so he is there.

It's all upto you.

Think the bosmer still serve in riften under maven, or atleast the court wizard does. Irleiath(dark elf) serves Balguaaf the greater, sybellie(breton) serves elisif the fair, Brunwulf attempts to further intergration of the dark elves and argonians into windhelm society and the imperials the the only army to have 2 mer legates in their ranks a high elf and dunmer. You could argue the mer in the legion are foreigners, but I know the high elf had been their before the rebellion having wanted to serve in skyrim because he did not trust the thalmor presence their.

You'll find many in the septim dynasty which a few stormcloak supporters claim was the only good dynasty.



First off and this isn't the really important, it wasn't just Vvardenfell, it was all of Morrowind if its Red Mountain you meant then nevermind. Second the Jarl of winterhold expresses no real care for either side, hell he can usually be found wallowing in self pity and being pretty useless while his steward does all the work and tries to contain peace between the people and the college, as for the college they are technically neutral to the whole civil war and have not officially taken a side, which is good because learning institutions and politics should never mix, which was the folly of the Mages Guild. Also the only town with a large amount of outsiders would be riften, dawnstar has a few but only because they are either sailors, miners or retired sailors who've enjoyed Dawnstar's quiet area to retire.

and No the Arcadia alchemist didn't exactly say they were going to be kicked out she said "I've been here for 20 years and I'll be damned if anyone, imperial or stormcloak, try to force me out" of course thats not exactly what she said but thats what she meant.

Not really derailed. The arguement is still pretty much on who seems more right in general. Like you said you can make an rp that fits either, but he seems to be wanting what is more politically correct. Nontheless I do agree with you post, it is up to player discretion and how they write their rp.

did not get to finish my other post-


The stormcloaks don't trust Arcadia(whiterun alchemist?) after they win. They accuse her of poisoning people and are trying to force her out of business.

You also forget that location to the border also has an effect on this. Black marsh and morrowind are closer to the east side of skyrim, thus why you see more in stormcloak cities. As I recall one dark elf saying after the eruption of red mountain they just went to the closest city that was not effected by the disaster.You see just about as many of the other races in both sides of skyrim since they don't share a border.

I 100% agree. Any race can rp a reason to join either side. I think most of us know that, but we just have different opinions over which is more likely, which is fine since we all have our own opinions. Still, I agree with you. It all comes down to choice

Mede I took over in 4e17. 5 years before the thalmor took over Summerset in 4e22, and 12 years before Valenwood was invaded in 4e29.

Even if it had been before, as stated earlier, he never made an attempt to retake it for the bosmer.