I can't do it, its just so unreasonable! : V - Skyrim

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:20 pm

I don't see it as a 180. I think the Blades have acted in that demanding, rude, and insolent manner since the first time you meet them.

She comes across as driven, desperate, lost, and almost out of hope. She's seen all of her friends die, isn't sure why she's alive or what she's supposed to be doing with her life, and seems to be grasping at the crazy notion a Dragonborn just showed up and might give her some kind of purpose. That's how she comes across to me, anyhow. I grant she's not polite and you could consider her insolent, but as I recall the MQ, after you show you are a Dragonborn she bends over backwards helping you do things. She gets you into the Thalmor Embassy, is impressed with her work, starts to feel actually happy about something when she finds out another Blade is alive, etc.

The old man seems like the doddering profesor type who is in love with history. Pretty unlikely to be issuing orders to a near mythical figure that has tons of prophecy about him.

Then you get them their temple and a base of operations. Up until that point they've been liking you more and more, and seem to have had a growing respect for for you and been serious about the Blades serving the Dragonborn. Suddenly, Delphine starts talking about how anyone that joins the Blades won't be loyal to you first and later they demand you kill a friend that even all the Dragonborn Emperors have protected. I have to say this really does seem like a somewhat bizarre shift, because the direction things were going in your relationship with them takes a very abrupt turn -- it makes it feel like they were somehow both playing you, yet they had no time to formulate a position together. It is weird.

The Blades are kind of the poop icing on the top of the poop cake, though, since everyone from small children on up treats you like a worm. My husband isn't playing but sits in the same room with me while I play, and he's said that I need to start making notes of every time someone insults me. It becomes hilarious after you start paying attention to it. Storekeeper: "Well, I guess you can't be as stupid as you look." Child: "I'm not afraid of you!" Man on street: "Do you get to the ritzy part of town? Of course not, loser." Servant: "Oh sure, I have nothing better to do than carry your stuff." Guard: "Don't make trouble in my town!" Blacksmith, when asked about his past: "Are you stupid? I'm a blacksmith, are you blind?" There's even a particular quest which is ABOUT how your momma dresses you funny, loser.

I really get the impression that all this was done out of some sick sense of humor. As though the person/people who decided on this got a perverse laugh out of the idea of you being a hero and almost everyone treating you like dirt. There's a lot in the game that feels like it was done for the sake of twisted humor, honestly.

Really, did all the writers have moms who beat them as children? I was a geek in school, and I get insulted more in one day of Skyrim than I did in four years of high school.

Same here, and honestly, after playing something like 150 hours of Skyrim, I feel like I've been insulted in the game more than I've been insulted in my entire life.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:43 pm

Doesn't Arngeir comment that one of the reasons he dislikes the Blades are because while they claim to serve the Dragonborn, in reality they try to control the Dragonborn?

Anyways, they really are an irritating pair. When Delphine said that unless I killed Paarthanax, the Blades weren't going to help me again, I'd love an option to slap Delphine and tell her: "You are sworn to serve the Dragonborn, Delphine. You and all the Blades. You'd still be hiding in your backwater inn from the Thalmor if I hadn't jumped through all the hoops you put me through. You wouldn't have this secluded temple, hidden from the rest of the world and the Thalmor to rebuild the Blades. The Blades would still be limited to you and Esbern if I hadn't brought willing recruits to you. If not for me, when you and Esbern died, the Blades would become nothing more than a footnote in history, forgotten to all but scholars; perhaps a deserved fate, given how badly you all failed to protect the Empire. So do not think to order me around. I am the Dragonborn, and you are sworn to serve me. I am not your lapdog, despite what you may have convinced yourself".

I actually took my weapon out and smashed Delphines face in and sent her sprawling onto the floor once she delievered that ultimatum to me. I then reloaded an earlier save.

this

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:09 pm

this

Yes, the game sometimes really pisses me off with how you can't tell people things like that. I understand they can't do everything, but some of the stuff you can't do is extremely obvious and it is so grating to have your hands artificially tied.

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:44 am

If you're on the PC, simply use the console to advance the quest (can be found on the wiki). I did this with my char, Paarthurnax will still be alive and you will be able to continue to do the Blades quests. However there isn't that much to do at all...you recruit the 3 blades and then you get this repeatable misc quest to obtain Esbern's potion...so lame. I've never liked the Blades. In Oblivion I didn't join them when offered, don't like to get mixed up in all their politics.

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:15 am

Same here, and honestly, after playing something like 150 hours of Skyrim, I feel like I've been insulted in the game more than I've been insulted in my entire life.

I'm glad people are addressing this, but it gets old if it's only in reference to the Blades. If one's criticism is a general one, then makes more sense.

Go talk to Njada Stonearm for a second. She doesn't care if you're the Harbinger either. "Hah! What guidance can you offer me?"

Funny thing is, I probably act like her in real life sometimes. At least, when I'm in an irritable mood. So I don't mind. I don't want to kiss anyone's ass and don't want my ass kissed. If I need a cookie, I'll probably bake my own somehow.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:10 pm

well, don't do it then

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:31 am

I don't see it as a 180. I think the Blades have acted in that demanding, rude, and insolent manner since the first time you meet them.

Yep.

Blade
"Oh you're the one that has been nosing around here."

Shara: "You want some of this two handed hammer down your throat??!!"

-edit-
I don't even go into the Riverwood Inn anymore because of her. I just can not stand her.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:25 pm

Doesn't Arngeir comment that one of the reasons he dislikes the Blades are because while they claim to serve the Dragonborn, in reality they try to control the Dragonborn?

Anyways, they really are an irritating pair. When Delphine said that unless I killed Paarthanax, the Blades weren't going to help me again, I'd love an option to slap Delphine and tell her: "You are sworn to serve the Dragonborn, Delphine. You and all the Blades. You'd still be hiding in your backwater inn from the Thalmor if I hadn't jumped through all the hoops you put me through. You wouldn't have this secluded temple, hidden from the rest of the world and the Thalmor to rebuild the Blades. The Blades would still be limited to you and Esbern if I hadn't brought willing recruits to you. If not for me, when you and Esbern died, the Blades would become nothing more than a footnote in history, forgotten to all but scholars; perhaps a deserved fate, given how badly you all failed to protect the Empire. So do not think to order me around. I am the Dragonborn, and you are sworn to serve me. I am not your lapdog, despite what you may have convinced yourself".

I actually took my weapon out and smashed Delphines face in and sent her sprawling onto the floor once she delievered that ultimatum to me. I then reloaded an earlier save.

Did she die? I'm so doing that if she died.. Oh yeah.......

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:19 pm

Just press the "B" button or whatever you use to end abruptly a conversation before you get the quest. This way it won't remain in your journal. The two remaining Blades end up in a big, dark, empty temple stuck on a mountain. Let them bask in the glory of the past because they have no future. There's really no reason to go there anymore or to talk to them. I think they were an unnecessary addition to the main quest to make it artificially longer.

Agreed! I rather kill the Blades and the Emperor (been there, done that), than Paarthurnax! I will never kill that dragon, no matter how many times I'll play Skyrim! The reasoning behind it is so lame! I mean, how many centuries does it take for Paarthurnax to atone for his sins? He was an unwilling participant in a stupid war, or maybe he was willing and at the time the war made sense. Will you hold soldiers accountable for their actions forever, because a mad man orders them to do something?

Delphine and Esbern sound pathetic when they order you to go kill Paarthurnax. In my eyes, he is the best Skyrim has to offer... filled with the wisdom of ages, kind and helpful. He does not deny the roll he played at the time of the Dragon Wars, but at that time, there was no other choice but to follow Alduin! You think men would have asked a dragon what side he is on? No, they killed all the dragons on sight (at least that's what I think).

Anyway, Paarthurnax' heart is in the right place and he should not die for sins committed centuries ago! The Blades are full of crap!

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:26 pm

I think I'll roleplay my Blades member as racist against dragons. He doesn't need a reason or gives a crap about the "heart" of dragons. He dehumanizes them and belittles their capacity to even have a heart. :biggrin:

Although, ironically, not racist against anyone else.

It's just standard for the game anyways. Everyone has a dark side. Even Ysolda.

Well, not Mjoll. And you fine folks, obviously.

One of these days I'll get around to finishing a "good" character. I'm so freaking sick of them though.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:33 pm

I don't want to kill Paarth because the blades say so, but I do wish he would tell the other dragons to go back home.

Anyone who has killed Paarth, does the "Letter from a friend" leading you to more Words of Power stop showing up?

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:15 pm

The Blades are kind of the poop icing on the top of the poop cake, though, since everyone from small children on up treats you like a worm. My husband isn't playing but sits in the same room with me while I play, and he's said that I need to start making notes of every time someone insults me. It becomes hilarious after you start paying attention to it. Storekeeper: "Well, I guess you can't be as stupid as you look." Child: "I'm not afraid of you!" Man on street: "Do you get to the ritzy part of town? Of course not, loser." Servant: "Oh sure, I have nothing better to do than carry your stuff." Guard: "Don't make trouble in my town!" Blacksmith, when asked about his past: "Are you stupid? I'm a blacksmith, are you blind?" There's even a particular quest which is ABOUT how your momma dresses you funny, loser.

Jesus this is so true. Practically every npc, all the time, cynical, snide, or just an outright a-hole. Every now and then you'll get tossed a little doggy treat like "Hey, thanks for saving the East empire company!" or "The Guards are in your debt!" but that quickly fades with the overwhelming "Hey you're the new Companion right? So you do what, fetch the mead?" and "Get out of my face!" or "My blood boils at the sight of you".

You can't go right with most people, even most of your "allies". I'm betting in the next game they'll make more Blade-paarth situations. Where no matter what you did or how valuable you are, you'll have to choose between factions for petty little reasons that are brought up out of the blue. I can use a dragon to slay my enemies, ride, and call upon? Sure! But how dare I go to a dragon for crap like wisdom or meditation!

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:28 am

Obviously, you guys have never been to Boston or NYC.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:32 pm

I haven't but I wouldn't be surprised. Modern culture now is actually all about cynicism, being ironic, snide and "clever". So I guess it comes full circle.

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:25 am

Obviously, you guys have never been to Boston or NYC.

I have. I actually found them friendlier (just wandering around seeing the sights) than Salt Lake City. Now, LA.... eww.

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:10 am

I haven't but I wouldn't be surprised. Modern culture now is actually all about cynicism, being ironic, snide and "clever". So I guess it comes full circle.

People used to be even more brutal, I think. We've got it pretty good, relatively speaking.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:39 pm

How so? Nothing I've read here, or seen in game would indicate that there's a particular morality you must play with to complete the game. You play the game in whatever way you see fit - that is the overriding thematic that I've taken thus far. Both from within game and within forums.

Sure, decisions and 'paths taken' have consequences, but the game doesn't cease merely because of someone choosing not to kill a dragon.

It's not a matter of the gameplay, it's a matter of RPing. If I'm playing a goody goody I'm definitely not going to kill him. If I'm playing a horribly evil son of a gun...well I'm not gonna start the quest in the 1st place cause evil summoner of death doesn't care about saving the world. :tongue:

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:06 pm

How about this. You are allowed to answer a definitive NO to Delphine and she goes off in a huff. You then recruit your OWN people, recruit Esbern, and refound the blades as an agency who works against the Thalmor -- ambushing their agents, gathering intelligence, etc. And then in the next game you get to see your new organization still in existance, playing a key part of the next game? Delphine goes back to her bar, but since she gave it to the clerk, now she's just a barmaid. You go there and order a drink and laugh (in your blades armor).

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:02 am

How about this. You are allowed to answer a definitive NO to Delphine and she goes off in a huff. You then recruit your OWN people, recruit Esbern, and refound the blades as an agency who works against the Thalmor -- ambushing their agents, gathering intelligence, etc. And then in the next game you get to see your new organization still in existance, playing a key part of the next game? Delphine goes back to her bar, but since she gave it to the clerk, now she's just a barmaid. You go there and order a drink and laugh (in your blades armor).

yes. -g-

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:22 pm

The main beef people have with the "Kill Paarthurnax" quest isn't that the Blades demand you do.... it's that you can't tell them to go fetch themselves for it. It's just stuck there in your quest log forever.

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:33 am

The main beef people have with the "Kill Paarthurnax" quest isn't that the Blades demand you do.... it's that you can't tell them to go fetch themselves for it. It's just stuck there in your quest log forever.

I don't care about that. I have a dozen quests or so stuck in my log.

What I care about is how the Blades suddenly turn. Early on Delphine apologizes for being so controlling. Here, you can't even have a proper conversation with her about Paarthurnax, same with Esbern. And they stop helping you with the dragon problem too? It feels forced, unnatural, and doesn't give you any real options to react to it. If anything really annoys me about TES games it is where the sandbox runs into a brick wall like this because suddenly you can't interact with the world.

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:51 am

It rather annoyed me when Delphine turned to me and said she was going to break her oath as a Blade until I slew Paarthurnax, right after the peace treaty. Thanks for nothing!

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:15 am

Doesn't Arngeir comment that one of the reasons he dislikes the Blades are because while they claim to serve the Dragonborn, in reality they try to control the Dragonborn? Anyways, they really are an irritating pair. When Delphine said that unless I killed Paarthanax, the Blades weren't going to help me again, I'd love an option to slap Delphine and tell her: "You are sworn to serve the Dragonborn, Delphine. You and all the Blades. You'd still be hiding in your backwater inn from the Thalmor if I hadn't jumped through all the hoops you put me through. You wouldn't have this secluded temple, hidden from the rest of the world and the Thalmor to rebuild the Blades. The Blades would still be limited to you and Esbern if I hadn't brought willing recruits to you. If not for me, when you and Esbern died, the Blades would become nothing more than a footnote in history, forgotten to all but scholars; perhaps a deserved fate, given how badly you all failed to protect the Empire. So do not think to order me around. I am the Dragonborn, and you are sworn to serve me. I am not your lapdog, despite what you may have convinced yourself". I actually took my weapon out and smashed Delphines face in and sent her sprawling onto the floor once she delievered that ultimatum to me. I then reloaded an earlier save.

It is my fervent hope that someone from Bethesda reads this and makes it a dialogue option. I'd happily pay money to be able to say that to her face (and also smack her nose like an errant pup).

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:38 am

some people here have said the Blades are supposed to serve the Dragonborn. Within reason, this is true. But keep in mind, the task of the Blades is twofold:

1) protecting and serving the Dragonborn, but mainly the former emperors of the Septim dynasty

2) Dragon slayers. Point one aside, Delphine and Esbern make it explicitly clear that they are now dragon slayers, and to AID the dragonborn in slaying dragons.

with that said, I don't mind Esbern or Delphine at all. This quest is the only issue I have with them, indeed I'm sure it's the only quest any of us have an issue with the Blades.

someone related Paarthurnax's role in the Dragon Wars to that of Nazism. This is not quite true. The second world war was recent. The war with the dragons was thousands of years old. It would be like saying an immortal lieutenant of Ghengis Khan must die for the actions the Mongols did roughly 600-700 years ago.

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:05 am

someone related Paarthurnax's role in the Dragon Wars to that of Nazism. This is not quite true. The second world war was recent. The war with the dragons was thousands of years old. It would be like saying an immortal lieutenant of Ghengis Khan must die for the actions the Mongols did roughly 600-700 years ago.

Well, you'd also have to make Ghengis Khan immortal with great power and the only way he was beaten was because his lieutenant taught non-immortals the secret of this power.