Come and try.... :gun:

FO1 is an RPG and it's good ending is the base for FO2. Good endings make the lore/canon. All other endings are just for fun. If every ending was it's own canon ending the game would be so confusing. FO3 needed an ending just like the Originals with clear answers to what happened to the people and places. Hopefully New Vages will bring that back.

No to Enclave. Yes to Ex-Enclave NPCs. I would love to see a settlement of Ex-Enclave people. If you do some quests for them you can get the APAMK1

Kinda defeats the point of playing a RPG then... And in both of them there was only 1 to go (Kill master, or die trying. Or Kill Enclave or die trying), and that always lead to the finish of the game. FO3: BS offered a multiple endings.

Wrong the canon ending to FO3 was the good karma one. As it has been with the originals.

Depends on the RPG. You might be thinking of Sand Box games like Mass Effect.

RPG's don't have to be open ended games with every ending being it's own form of canon. By the logic of every ending is canon then NCR does not exist but yet it does. The Vault Dweller became a super mutant yet was human and killed the master. See my point?

But in both Fallout 1 & 2, only one ending was offered for the MQ. If you where dipped in the FEV, you don't finish the game. In Fallout 3 BS there is more than one ending you can choose and still win. RPG's don't always offer multiple endings but in this case it did. I would agree with you if it was like FO1 and 2 that only allowed 1 MQ ending, but FO3BS offered 3.

Wrong, in FO1 you could let the master kill everything and take of the area, or you could defeat him. Same in FO2. Plus in the originals each location ended up with about 3+ different ways to end up. So in FO1/FO2 there were WAY MORE ENDINGS.

Being Dipped was a way to end the game. FO1 and FO2 have multiple ending and they let you know what happens. The endings are based on you're actions during the game. You can help slavers and be a really bad guy which can result some very bad things. If those bad things are canon as well the lore would be messed up. FO3 has options right at the end yes but so do the originals the good option is the canon ending.

Fallout Tactics has many Endings as well . The one that is canon is the most heroic ending where you sacrifice yourself.

"According to Fallout Bible no one knows what happened to Navarro after Fallout 2"- and there's hardly any reason to believe that the canon plot of Fallout 2 featured the Chosen One wiping out this heavily fortified Enclave base. After the Posidon Oil rig was destroyed the Enclave may have not had the manpower to overwhelm the mainland, but they still maintained a powerful force of power armored troops near the coastline and could easily hold back the weakened NCR and Brotherhood. I'm assuming that they eventually disbanded due to lack of supplies and effective leadership, but it would be understandable that patches of Enclave resistance still remain in the western Wasteland.

The point is that only one set of endings ends up being written into canon. If you continue Mass Effect 2 from a Mass Effect save it brings your decisions from the first game over to the second game (well, sort of), but most games don't do that. In most cases the creators have to choose which ending from the previous game they think should be canon and go from there at the start of the next game. It has nothing to do with whether or not it's an RPG.

I wouldn't mind running into some ex-Enclave NPCs or even some Enclave scounting parties (as long as they are rare), like the Outcast patrols we find in the capitol wasteland. I don't think that New Vegas _needs_ the Enclave to make the game successful, as we already have new dominant factions that will take up the lions share of NPCs/interactions. We've been told that BoS will make a low-level/camio-like appearance, so its certainly possible to have the same with the Enclave. But I think ex-Enclave NPCs would be much more spicy! :goodjob: :fallout:

NCR seems more friendly then the Enclave.Mainly because they don't have a "Shoot first ask questions later"Mentality

If remnants of the Enclave remain, I find it likely that 40 years out from the events of FO2, most would have left for the east coast to take part in the disastrous plan of President Eden, especially those in a position of power or authority. Surely if the Enclave planned to usher in a new age by creating an area of pure humans in one part of the country, most of the organization would have been there or on route. Any Enclave members left behind to maintain the bases or foothold in the West would quickly fall into disarray with no purpose and no leader to give them a new one. They likely would have disbanded and gone their own ways, either to assimilate into the local population or become highly effective raiders with their advanced gear.

Even if the remaining Enclave in the West didn't disband, this shortly after FO3 (less than 4 years), they would be withdrawn and cautious, nursing their wounds and egos in private, and becoming largely unheard of until they can replenish their numbers. Considering they prefer pure humans, or at least as pure as they can get, they wouldn't be likely to recruit from the general populace, who they consider mutants, and would spend a generation or more rebuilding their numbers from children born to the group.

Regardless, we shouldn't hear anything from the Enclave as an organization in New Vegas, though it is likely we may run into ex-Enclave NPCs, newly disillusioned deserters from a failed cause.

RPG's with sequels almost without exception declare the good ending canon.

Otherwise, this whole discussion is moot - I sided with the Master in FO1, therefore FO2, FO3 and New Vegas Never happened.

That's was done before FO3. FO3 says that the Enclave travelled East. Navarro could still be there and there could still be Enclave but after 38 years I am sure they would have A: Said to hell with it and went Merc or just looted everything and left. B: NCR finally made it to Navarro and took it. C: The BoS made it to Navarro and took it. D: The Shi might have even taken it. E: Enclave looted everything of Value and went East. Also Navarro was not that big and there would not be enough troops to stay behind to make the Enclave a worthy faction for New Vegas, plus Navarro is far way from New Vegas. Not all the troops at Navarro had PA.

It would be cool if there were Enclave remnants/ deserters. Arcade Gannon was supposed to be a deserter from somewhere in the Midwest Region. Maybe after they found out that their government dissolved, the higher ups became independent warlords fighting for control over whatever is left. That would be pretty cool.

Whats the point of the fallout karma system lol everyone loves the whole good vs evil [censored] but it's all grey. If the good karma always wins no matter then whats the point of the game when there isn't any choice if the ending result is chosen for you no matter pointless decisions. I played fallout 2 i hated the set ending talk about lame as hell. I played fallout 3 no matter what i did i was stuck on the stupid as [censored] bos team, but i put the virus in the water, i blew up the citadel and for what nothing to be recorded lol? Like saying Oh hey all you guys that poisoned the water and blew up the citadel well you did it but im saying it didn't happen. Talk about a big [censored] you lol.

I hope they do. Maybe they're pulling the strings of one of the factions and show up?

I Agree that the Enclave should not make a major (if any) appearance in FO:NV. What I am trying to argue is that The Enclave is not destroyed as a faction. They where beaten on the West Coast oil rig (And styles, from what I understand, Navarro holds the most advanced gear in the wastes. It has a whole bunch of soldiers, considering how many times you run into patrols trying to get to Navarro and the men actually in the base, and Vertibirds+Base defenses that could hold off almost any attack from the Brotherhood, Shi, or NCR. Otherwise what would have been holding these factions back before, considering they don't know about the oil rig.) And the Enclave moving east does not mean that the West coast Enclave would loose all their leadership. Col. Autum was probably just one of the "higher ups" the Enclave had at their disposal.

(also, the NCR and BOS would be somewhat weak at this point, They just fought a war against eachother where both sides had A LOT of losses. Moral and Men would be hard to come by for a attack on a group stronger than the BoS tech wise)

Another factor to take into regard is the fact that the Enclave could have had multiple bases. In FO2, if you are at the oil rig, on the same level as the president, the room right of the presidential office there is a map of the world. On that map there are 2 dots in California, 1 on the East Coast near DC, and many more scattered round the USA. I dont think they represent the Vaults, because there is only 1 on the East Coast near DC (while there are many vaults in FO3). If you where to look at them as Enclave bases, it would make out perfectly. 2 in Cali (Oil Rig and Navarro) and 1 on the East Coast (Raven Rock). It would not make much since either, having vault experiments on a map where you make you major strategic decisions. It would be more logical to have that information in a lab or observation terminal.

ANOTHER question to raise is: If they where sooo weak after FO2, how did they manage to create that mobile crawler + get hold of all those Vertibirds that we see flying out of RR after it is blown up? They either are not as weak as we think at Navarro or they had more bases scattered through the former nation. They even managed to create new and better Power Armor (meaning they have factories somewhere). Otherwise, it would be near impossible for them to get that equipment and manage a trek across the U.S.. It is even said that the Oil rig was only the HQ of the Enclave. That does not mean it is the only major base.

If, like you say, the MQ ending is only following the "good" trail, that would not eliminate the Enclave. Yes, it would weaken them, but they must surely still have more bases and soldiers elsewhere.

P.S. ^^ Enclave Commander, my thoughts exactly.

Cheers,
Mk II

Interesting thoughts. Especially concerning the map in FO2 aboard the oil rig. I personally never thought they were completely wiped out as a faction, but there is only so many times a faction can fail in its plans and maintain a solid grip on its members. As far was we know, the Enclave has prepared for and executed 2 different (but very similar) plans that required long periods of planning and preparation, only to have those plans turn into disasters that essentially decapitated the top of the command structure both times. If that hasn't created some internal strife and doubt, it should.

I mean, the Enclave was using a computer for a President! It would be horrible enough to find out most of your high level leadership had been wiped out, but to discover that the president you had been supporting was fake? You think that went over well with the rank and file?

I believe the Enclave by necessity has to be in a period of self-reflection and re-organization. They are trying to settle internal power plays, revise ideologies, and recover strength. For one, they don't know that the East coast Brotherhood isn't in contact with the West coast BOS. And the BOS just mud-stomped their operations and military in the East. Without any guaranteed backup from the Eastern Enclave, the Enclave left in the West has to be considering the possibility that the Western BOS may make a move on them, and they are in a poor position to resist. All these things point to a massive withdrawal as a faction for at least a couple of decades.

Yeah, I would be discouraged too, if my president was killed twice in my life, And 2 major operations failed as well. However, President Richardson was killed 38 (?) years ago (In FO3 timing). Given thats the case, the Enclave in FO3 would be a new generation. This defeat would be their first. They would be discouraged, but not as much so if lost 2 presidents in their same lifetime. Also, the average Enclave citizen would not quickly abort their way of life. hey know no other way. While what happened in FO3 was a major setback for their plans their, I doubt its a moral buster that would blow them away. It would cause them as a whole to sit back, and like you say, recover and rethink. That is why I don't expect to see too much of them on FONV. Its their time of "licking their wounds". I do expect to see them in future Fallout games, but with a little bit more of a cautious attitude and behavior.

Cheers,
Mk II

And if could speculate on their future behavior and plans, I would lay good odds on them keeping their president and propaganda to themselves, using it to provide moral support and camaraderie amongst the troops and their own faction, but working very much behind the scenes, carefully and without exposing themselves to as much risk. One reason is that past failures should have taught them this is the way to go, and two, on the off chance they fail again (likely if there is some pesky person sporting a Pipboy in the area) they want necessarily have to let anyone know they failed, thus keeping dignity and pride intact.

And I think you glossed too easily over the effects finding out President Eden was an AI would have on the common Enclave soldier or supporter. Imagine one of our presidents getting assassinated, only to find out that they were a robot. How much faith could you put in the next administration? You'd never fully be able to trust them again. And your point about the East coast disaster being the only failure for this generation of Enclave is true, but it actually makes it much worse. All they have known is failure. All they hear stories about from their fathers and mothers and the previous generation is about failure. That's got to create a complex. (Of course you could argue the possibility that the Enclave makes great use of propaganda and thought control when raising the little ones, which would be fairly in line with the practices we have seen from them.)

EDIT:
Also, the Enclave seems to have one goal and purpose driving them, an ideology everything is dedicated towards - namely the restoration of America as pure place free from mutants and raiders, and a recapturing of the glorious days from before the Great War. I am actually totally in support of the Enclave's goal, but their methods offend me. And I think the current generation of Enclave members should be disheartened and frustrated (if nothing else) from the fact that in decades and possibly centuries of trying to achieve this goal, they have made no progress.

Yes, but the Germans did not abandon their nation after WW2. Almost the exact same scenario would have taken place (lost WW1 then 2), but look at Germany now. It is not as strong compared to what it was then, but its far from weak. National Pride still exists in their country.

Navarro could only hold off the outside world for so long. Without the rig to resupply them the base would fall maybe not right away but over a couple of years it could. The partols we encounter in Fallout 2 are people from the rig not Navarro at least most of them would be. The base itself only had what a dozen or so PA troops?. Most of the Enclave would have gone East. Also Navarro is to far away to be in Vegas. If the Enclave still controls it they would be busy defending it from other powerful factions to be going to Vegas.

Like others have said I don't think they should be back and after two major defeats they are done as a powerful faction. They could be in New Vegas as a small group or just Ex-Enclave mercs. I just don't want them as a powerful faction or even as a competent small faction trying to rebuild with another president.

I like to think that the Enclave are done in the West and the title of "president" is used as a boogeyman to frighten children.