Does anybody actually likeadmire Ulfric Stormcloak? : V - Skyrim

» Thu May 31, 2012 9:37 am

He's gonna get to taste some Ancient Nord Steel the next time I meet him.

» Thu May 31, 2012 2:26 pm

He is a smeghead

» Thu May 31, 2012 6:20 am

Ulfric is the man! I do whatever he tells me to do.

» Thu May 31, 2012 4:17 pm

You can't really apply real world values to the Elder Scrolls universe. When people constantly bring up racism, I find it blatantly ignorant. I mean no offense, but obviously you are not that aware of the Elder Scrolls universe. What I mean by this, is that pretty much EVERY race is racist. All Altmer think themselves superior to every other race of men and mer as they believe they are the direct decedents of Aedra. Osimer HATE Redguards and Bretons. Bretons don't really like Redguards, especially since the War of Betony. The Redguards don't really care for the Bretons for the same reason. Dunmer don't really like anyone all that much, but really don't like the Altmer. The Dunmer (back when they were Chimer) had came into Morrowind and screwed the Dwemer out of a lot of their territory. Redguards did something similar to Nedes and other Mer when they invaded Tamriel.

I could go on and on, but to sum it up, history has sown a lot of dissent among all the races. The Nords have VERY good reasons to distrust mer, one damn good reason being the Night of Tears.

» Thu May 31, 2012 1:54 pm

He may be racist and all but I find him very charismatic, and I just created a character who will join the Stormcloaks. (I have already finished the Imperial side on another character)

» Thu May 31, 2012 6:21 pm

Is there anybody out there who likes Stormcloak? Try and justify him to me.

No. He's a DB. And I don't mean the football position.

» Thu May 31, 2012 8:06 am

I just want to know how the Thalmor even have a say in anything, when Altmer are so underpowered in this entire series.

» Thu May 31, 2012 11:19 am

so im the only guy in the thread pulled his file from the Thalmor embassy then ?

Spoiler

The player finds this document as part of the Diplomatic Immunity quest. It is located in a chest in Elenwen's solar in the Thalmor embassy.

Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval

Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran

Background:
Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

Operational Notes:
Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

so ye you can stuff the "inspiring speeches" where the sun don't shine :gun:

» Thu May 31, 2012 7:47 pm

so im the only guy in the thread pulled his file from the Thalmor embassy then ?

Nope, I pulled it too.

Considering the Thalmor propensity for "re-education", I wouldn't doubt that he's a Manchurian Agent. Even if he thinks his mind's his own, he's been a captive of Thalmor agents. Tullius at least hasn't had that dubious distinction; though he may have to toe the party line in regards to appeasing the Thalmor, his mind is his own, and the appeasemant won't last forever.

Everything he does plays into the Thalmor's hands.

Schisming the Empire.
Alienating elves.
Booting out the only army that can match the Thalmor's.

» Thu May 31, 2012 8:24 am

i guess im in theminority when yes i like Ulfric. to me he seems very blunt . Also pfff no ones perfect, hell look at my charector hes doen some shady stuff himself. Alot of peopel goign on about him being racist, which for the most part is because of 2 reasons 1. Nords accept people once they prove thier worth, they dotn do handouts which is what most of the dark elfs came to Windhelm for because of the recent king, 2. Listen to them, they dont want to help or fight in the war of Skyrim they are an "unknown variable" in the equation. Yes hes after the High King spot because that is where he will be able to control and shape the nation into a Nord's values nation
Ulfrics a NORD, and ya i like him. Also for the love of God these are NORDS people, the Empire was founded on the Nords and relys heavily on the Nords for battle. Why i cant understand why people cant grasp that the Nords breakign off and forming thier own nation wont be a bane to the thalmor? The landscape of Skyrim plus the inhabitates on top of the location means that when Skyrim they wont be the first to be atke\d and will ahve enuf time to get together and band up and wipe the floor with them.

» Thu May 31, 2012 5:38 am

Nope, I pulled it too.

Considering the Thalmor propensity for "re-education", I wouldn't doubt that he's a Manchurian Agent. Even if he thinks his mind's his own, he's been a captive of Thalmor agents. Tullius at least hasn't had that dubious distinction; though he may have to toe the party line in regards to appeasing the Thalmor, his mind is his own, and the appeasemant won't last forever.

Everything he does plays into the Thalmor's hands.

Schisming the Empire.
Alienating elves.
Booting out the only army that can match the Thalmor's.

If you had actually read it fully, you'd notice they're very careful when dealing with him. They wanted a rebellion. They did not want a successful rebellion. This is because the thalmor army isn't so massive as you seem to think. The thalmor can't replace their numbers quite so easily as men can, so they puff up and look intimidating when they're in a bad position. The loss at red ring hurt them badly. They had gambled on ending the war completely with that force. It was nearly their entire army, and it was completely annihilated. So afterwards they relied on their subterfuge once more. And Mede's blind acceptance of the concordat played right into their hands.

There are those who claim the combined Altmer and Bosmer forces greatly out-matched the Empire, but this is a farce. This short, savage campaign was won by the Thalmor even before first blood was drawn. They waited and watched their enemy, they chose where and when they would attack. The Thalmor were able to bring the full fury of their small contingent of Altmer and Bosmer to any of several Imperial strongholds.

Contrary to the posturing of the Empire's generals, the Thalmor did not command greater numbers. They had better spies and greater mobility, and knew how best to use them. This is the menace that the Thalmor represent! They are cruel and merciless, but they are no fools! They are devious and subtle, and so very patient.

» Thu May 31, 2012 12:37 pm

Because clearly only might is the answer to defeating the Thalmor, it worked so wonderfully last time. Especially when the Empire is schismed by a rebellion that threatens to completely disband it this time.

The Concordat is to bide time. Like you said, the Empire can recoup their losses more quickly than the Thalmor can. But Stormcloak Rebellion sapping the Legion's strength only makes to lengthen the amount of time before it's ready for Round Two. If the Rebellion succeeds, then the Thalmor may have an openly hostile province... but just that. It can pick the rest of the imperial remnant provinces apart at its leisure one by one, and then turn its attention on the now alone Skyrim. Classic Divide and Conquer.

But if the Empire perserveres... then the Legion continues to gather strength and eventually become a threat; not just a "mutual assured decimation" threat.

Remember, the Thalmor were able to sack the Imperial City... but they could not capture it. Even after being blindsided with the opening of the war, they still won... barely. Think of how much more successful they'd be now that they're on guard and ready.

But that'd never happen if the Empire's back is broken by a successful Stormcloak rebellion.

And the elven populace of at least Skyrim if not the entirety of Tamriel would see the Stormcloak elven hostility and the collapsing Empire and decide there's no recourse but to back the Thalmor. Because hey... at least they're elves too.

» Thu May 31, 2012 7:08 pm

so im the only guy in the thread pulled his file from the Thalmor embassy then ?

Spoiler

The player finds this document as part of the Diplomatic Immunity quest. It is located in a chest in Elenwen's solar in the Thalmor embassy.

Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval

Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran

Background:
Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

Operational Notes:
Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

so ye you can stuff the "inspiring speeches" where the sun don't shine :gun:

Or you're the only one who interprets everything you read literally and never considers it in any other light?

Something interesting about the dossier that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere is that to me it has a certain CYA vibe. "Ulfric didn't give us any useful information"- oh but we got him good! "Ulfric escaped"- we meant to do that! "Markarth incident"- that was totally us! "When we tried to recruit Ulfric he told us to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reply_of_the_Zaporozhian_Cossacks"- a minor setback! It's all going according to plan!

And a lot of people in this forum follow right along with the Thalmor's view of themselves as infallible demigods.

» Thu May 31, 2012 11:51 am

What you're forgetting is the thalmor had no attack force left. The concordat was completely unnecessary. The current empire is weak and a shell of what it was. It needs to die and be remade. The thalmor won't enjoy trying to deal with nordic raids should the stormcloaks win. The current emperor doesn't know how to govern the other provinces. He's basically left them to their own devices while they suffered, and is finally realizing now that it was stupid of him to do so. Multiple provinces that are allied are better than one giant one that can't organize itself.

By the way. In my own opinion of him, I think Ulfric is a terrible man. As a TES character, I think he's a necessity. Anyone that knows Tiber Septim knows that he was a bastard too. He deceived, backstabbed, and bribed his way into power, and fought his way to heaven through violence.

Mythic beings or avatars of them hold immense power in the TES universe. Tiber acted like Lorkhan until he literally became him. Shezzarines change the course of history all the time(Pelinal, CoC, Dovahkiin). Ulfric working towards becoming the next stormcrown is a major problem for the Thalmor. Certain situations also tend to grant great power to people. The enantiomorph for example. The Rebel/King Duality. Ask yourself how dagoth ur managed to defeat the tribunal when they were gods. He was the rebel, they were the ruling kings. Rebels appear to get some sort of symbolic power due to their status of rebel.

» Thu May 31, 2012 10:01 am

Or you're the only one who interprets everything you read literally and never considers it in any other light?

Something interesting about the dossier that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere is that to me it has a certain CYA vibe. "Ulfric didn't give us any useful information"- oh but we got him good! "Ulfric escaped"- we meant to do that! "Markarth incident"- that was totally us! "When we tried to recruit Ulfric he told us to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reply_of_the_Zaporozhian_Cossacks"- a minor setback! It's all going according to plan!

And a lot of people in this forum follow right along with the Thalmor's view of themselves as infallible demigods.

nah i just follow the view that people don't generally leave deliberately misleading dossiers locked away in your own embassy under lock and key in some bizarre attempt to fool random wandering thief's into believing important people are sleeper agents because in short doing so makes absolutely no sense either within the frame of internal intergovernmental communication or in terms of the possible ramifications if such a letter ever ended up in the public domain.

occam's razor basically. there is absolutely no reason for the contents of that report to be fabricated.

the crucial points to note from that information is that he was contacted directly by the Thalmor since his "escape" and they believe he can be directly contacted again if the need arise. why would he even entertain such a meeting ? (rhetorical) because presumably the Thalmor are the very pinnacle of what he hates even morose than the empire he once fought against them for.

» Thu May 31, 2012 4:02 am

nah i just follow the view that people don't generally leave deliberately misleading dossiers locked away in your own embassy under lock and key in some bizarre attempt to fool random wandering thief's into believing important people are sleeper agents because in short doing so makes absolutely no sense either within the frame of internal intergovernmental communication or in terms of the possible ramifications if such a letter ever ended up in the public domain.

occam's razor basically. there is absolutely no reason for the contents of that report to be fabricated.

the crucial points to note from that information is that he was contacted directly by the Thalmor since his "escape" and they believe he can be directly contacted again if the need arise. why would he even entertain such a meeting ? (rhetorical) because presumably the Thalmor are the very pinnacle of what he hates even morose than the empire he once fought against them for.

I don't think Celan's point was "it was a fake so you would be tricked!", because that's a stupid argument. I think he's saying the report is spinning negative events into positives, in order to look better to the author's superiors. "It's okay boss, it was totally the plan, the project is still under budget and should be completed within the allotted timeframe," sorta thing.

» Thu May 31, 2012 4:39 am

Don't forget the the supporters of the Imperial Legion are sometimes irresponsible and corrupt people. For example, if the Legion controls Riften, Maven Black-Briar becomes Jarl which if you are a do-gooder is bad by itself. But even if you don't help the Legion, some of their supporters are already corrupt. Take the Battle-borns who act all insultingly to the Grey-manes even though the grey-manes are one of the nicest people in Whiterun and the Battle-borns hate you if you don't support them. Not to mention they mock a grey-mane who lost her son even though they know

Spoiler

he was taken by the thalmor to be tortured and killed

Even then, Jarls like the one in Falkreath are Legion supporters and are terrible. While the last Jarl of Falkreath may be paranoid, he seems to care about the town and people. The Legion supporting Jarl is terrible. He doesn't do any work, asks you to do things like bring him beer just because he is spoiled, he apparently made deals with bandits, and is lazy since he lets his steward do all the work and even tells you "You should be a Jarl. It's so easy since you don't have to do anything but get so much good stuff." While the Stormcloaks have some bad apples, at least most of their Jarls try to look out for the people.

» Thu May 31, 2012 4:51 am

I don't think Celan's point was "it was a fake so you would be tricked!", because that's a stupid argument. I think he's saying the report is spinning negative events into positives, in order to look better to the author's superiors. "It's okay boss, it was totally the plan, the project is still under budget and should be completed within the allotted timeframe," sorta thing.

it still contains the details of post "escape" direct Thalmor contact with him which runs contrary to everything the man supposedly represents.

there is in my assessment very little "spin" if any in that dossier. it's certainly not present in the language used which could be broken down sentence by sentence and shown to be pretty straightforwardly and factually presented with very little if any embellishment as one might expect from an internal government document but i really can't be bothered with these types of discussions as the only thing that really exists and is clear is the wish for it to be so by someone else on the other side of the argument (and i loath bullet point posting with a passion anyway)

i'm pretty much sure he'd get along great with garrosh hellscream

he will die in my current game one way or another. they all will.

i was born to rule and wear that crown by the will of Akatosh.

» Thu May 31, 2012 2:33 pm

Know how I know Ulfric isn't a bad person?

Spoiler

'Cause if you kill him he goes to Sovngarde.

So he can't be all that bad hm?

Misguided perhaps, but not a bad person.

» Thu May 31, 2012 11:19 am

Spoiler

so is Legate Rikke

» Thu May 31, 2012 9:25 am

Know how I know Ulfric isn't a bad person?

Spoiler

'Cause if you kill him he goes to Sovngarde.

So he can't be all that bad hm?

Misguided perhaps, but not a bad person.

Neither side are the bad guys. The Thalmor are the real threat. The Empire is more like a victim and the Stormcloaks are tired of waiting for them to fight back. General Tullius (who is clearly a good man) stated that he views the Thalmor as the enemy so we'll see where it goes.

» Thu May 31, 2012 8:02 pm

All hail Ulfric! True High King of Skyrim!

» Thu May 31, 2012 5:16 am

i'm pretty much sure he'd get along great with garrosh hellscream

ROFL!! I'm glad someone besides me had that thought!

» Thu May 31, 2012 6:35 pm

Know how I know Ulfric isn't a bad person?

Spoiler

'Cause if you kill him he goes to Sovngarde.

So he can't be all that bad hm?

Misguided perhaps, but not a bad person.

What's more, he's a really good sport about everything when you find him there.

» Thu May 31, 2012 2:33 pm

wait wait wait if u kill Ulfric before the dragon quests are over u get to see Ulfric in there????
u sir gave me a reason to play a legion playthru.