I respect the Empire, because initially they told the Thalmor to go fxxk themselves. They were almost entirely wiped out from the resulting war with the Thalmor, but they fought back and recaptured the Imperial City. Having massively reduced numbers, they had no choice but to compromise for peace. This is something the Stormcloaks fail to appreciate. Acting like they were sold out. The Thalmor would walk all over Skyrim if it were not for Imperial presence. Every last shrine to Talos and the rebellious Nords would be wiped out forever. We must team up and destroy their Elf poof ways.

"What the rebels like to forget is, the Empires whats keeping the dominion out of Skyrim."

Read it again.

Bah, the Thalmor were weakened, too, but instead of just calling for a truce, the emperor gave the Thalmor almost everything they wanted anyway. He is weak and Cyrodiil is nothing but a dead weight that is going to drag Skyrim down with it. Maybe when they lose Skyrim, it will wake the imperials up and they'll realize they can't depend on svcking their provinces dry in order to survive. "Team up" implies that you're equals, on equal footing. That is what the Stormcloaks want. It's the imperials who want to lord it over the Nords, to have their cake and eat it too.

The irony of this statement? The empire is the what brought the Thalmor into Skyrim.

Avenicci is a Breton.

Damned faithless Imperials! Ulfric Stormcloak is the only true High King of Skyrim!

People seem to help Ulfric the most because the empire was about to cut off their head. And as a note the Stormcloaks are having problems pushing a whole legion out of Skyrim. Imagine what happens when a bigger army comes prodding along yes?

I could care less about their failure to execute me. Ulfric is the true High King, and that tyrant in a dress needs to get out of my country. The Thalmor too.

While the Empire gave the right to enter Skyrim for the Thalmor, it was due to Ulfric's Markarth incident that got the Thalmor's attention. So both the Empire and Ulfric are to blame for the Thalmor for being in Skyrim.

WTF are you talking about? The Markarth incident had nothing to do with the Thalmor, AFAIK. Explain.

Actually he challenged the High King through the old ways. But it doesn't make him High King until a moot decides he is.

Yes it does, Ulfric gave Markarth to the Empire in exchange for being allowed to worship Talos publicily. The Empire accepted it due to two reasons, one being the amount of sliver that would help raise the coffers of Empire/Skyrim and the other being, if you believe the book The Bear of Markarth, was to stop Ulfric's slaughter of citizens. Of course you could read his doisser that states the Markarth incident was invaluable towards getting the Thalmor into Skyrim.

Two things:

1) They ARE walking all over Skyrim. You think those Thalmor justicars kidnapping Talos worshippers are hallucinations?
2) There's no evidence to believe that the Nords, united under Ulfric, can't defeat the Thalmor in open battle. To be fair, there's no evidence to believe that he can, either. But given that the Thalmor would have to march clear across the rest of the Empire to get there, it's fair to say that the prospect of a full-scale Thalmor invasion of Skyrim, without the explicit permission of the rest of the Empire, is unlikely. Basically, without the safe conduct of Imperial troops, the Thalmor would find themselves hung from the nearest tree.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Bear_of_Markarth I'd just rather have to pay taxes and homage to an impoverished Empire than bend knee to a lunatic using the Talos ban and the people's rage over the White Gold Concordat as a machine to usurp the throne without a moot.

Personally, I don’t care about the leader, but there are reasons as to why I respect the stormcloak movement.

Firstly, Hammerfall can defend itself in isolation from the Mer, I’m sure Skyrim could too if it came to such a point. However there is always the possibility that if the Empire released Skyrim, they could ally as independent and friendly states against a neutral enemy.

Why should the Nords leave the Empire though? One primary reason. The Nords are funding for an occupational force in their own lands. The Nords obviously pay taxes to the empire, and in return the Empire allows the Dominion to have an influential hold over Skyrim. When you realise that the Average Nord is forced to pay for an taxes to an Altmer occupational force that tries to banish their religion, it becomes easy to see why the individual would be rather annoyed at the Empire.

This is reinforced by the fact that the Jarls, or rather the majority of them, are in the pocket of the Empire. The Jarl of Whiterun and his advisor mention the chests of gold that were sent to the Jarl in order to appease him for the banning of the worship of Talos. I doubt any of that gold went to the people who actually suffered from the ban.

It should also be noted that the stormcloaks have their starting influence in the poorer regions of Skyrim. Windhelm being their capital, and the smaller "major holds" of Dawnstar and winterhold, two rather small villages. Riften also has its obvious negatives of being shown as a rather down-trodden hold, with the thieves guild and open corruption (eg the guard at the door.)
Next to holds such as Solitude, the seat of the Empire in Skyrim, we can the disproportionate wealth between the Empire and Skyrim.

Ultimately, the problems have arisen because the Empire still wants to cling onto this inequality that benefits itself, in order to hold of the Dominion forces. However, would the problems in Skyrim continue to exist if Skyrim was treated equally against the Empire? Maybe, but it certainly wouldn’t have such an influence.
If the Empire needs Skyrim to win, it would be more beneficial for both sides (in the immediate short term) to form together as separate allies.

I think both Ulfric and Tullius are downright stupid. They need to stop [censored]ing at eachother and work together.

The Thalmor would crush the Empire without Skyrim. The Thalmor would crush Skyrim without the Empire.

Sure, because an Imperial scholar doesn't write with any bias at all. I'm judging Ulfric and the Empire by their word and deed, not by what some milk-drinking scholar in the pay of the Empire says about him. I've SEEN Imperial torturers, I've SEEN Thalmor kidnapping Nords across Skyrim. I've never seen him or his followers torture anyone, nor have I seen him put yielding enemies to death. I've only seen him fight for his right to defend his homeland, as High King.

Also as for the Bear of Markarth Story.
Several points...

Never underestimate the power of bias in any source. The author is obviously pro-Empire/Anti-Stormcloak, details can easily be manipulated. Perhaps they were innocent shop keepers and farmers to the Empire, there is a distinct possibility that they were infact Forsworn aggressors. It’s obvious the author wasn’t at the event, therefore every point he raises is disputable.

Secondly: "ruled their lands fairly, and were making overtures to be recognized by the empire" Paying off the Empire. Perhaps they were recognized by the empire, but none of these overtures were sent to the Nords of Skyrim. Paying the Empire to inhabit Skyrim is not just.

Point is, If this incident was written by a pro-stormcloak author, it could preach about the Nords heroically taking back their lands after forsworn aggression, and Ulfric led them to victory and wiped out the aggressors for the benefit of the Nords in their own lands. Of course this probably isn’t true and the event lies somewhere in a grey area. But we as players, do not know.

Such ironies here. You see at the beginning of the game what the empire thinks of Nord traditions like the moot. They also contend that Ulfric's duel was "murder," and execute the man that let him out of the city, even though this too was according to Nord tradition. According to Ulfric, the empire has hand-picked Skyrim's king for generations, and they have picked the jarls as well. So your principled stand on the moot sounds pretty funny. Once he has gotten some military victories, Ulfric says he won't declare himself king without the moot. By then it's a foregone conclusion, but you can see his rebellion as simply evening the score for years of the empire calling the shots.

Also... will people please actually read The Bear of Markarth? Please? Including the title page and the last paragraph which reveals the purpose in writing it (licking the Thalmor's boots over why there is a Talos shrine in Markarth).

What people seem to forget about in all of these threads is that 'traditional Nord ways' involved an aaawful lot of 'killing non-Nords'. Lots and lots of raids into Morrowind, for example. The entire history of the Nords, as told by the Nords themselves, is pretty much a whole lot of bloody conquest. Skyrim itself was not originally settled by the Nords, they moved in and ended up kicking most everyone else out. The Falmer, the Dwemer, the ancestors of the Reachmen, and, if you believe what a few orc strongholds will tell you, the Orsimer were all in what became Skyrim before the Nords ever arrived. Which is not to say these groups were innocent puppies either, but it's something to keep in mind.

Whether or not Ulfric himself is a racist (and wanting to commit genocide is not a requirement of racism), his nationalist call sure seems to have attracted an awful lot of people with those views to his banner. There's a Stormcloak dude in Falkreath who will sneer at my character every single time and go 'I can't believe we allow you provincials to walk around' whenever she visits the general goods store. That drunken [censored] who goes and shouts at the Dunmer in the Grey Quarter every night wouldn't be doing that if he didn't think 1) he was justified, and 2) he could get away with it. Allowing these kinds of things to go on in his ranks doesn't do any favors for Ulfric's reputation, and it's interesting that I run into these kinds of characters primarily in Stormcloak friendly areas.

Maybe Ulfric's racist. Maybe he just plays to, or turns a blind eye towards, the racism in his own ranks because he doesn't want to risk alienating some of his loudest supporters. Either way, it doesn't bode terribly well for non-Nords in a Stormcloak victory.

Ulfric and his Stormcloaks can look forward to the mud from the trampling hordes of glorious Legions trampling their boot across their fallen faces! All hail the Emperor! LOL.

The glorious battles won by the Empire during the war with the Thalmor are something to behold. The Emperor is a great and glorious man! He compromised in the end to save both the Empire, and, ironically, the Talos worshipers, for had the emperor risked continuation of the war and had the Thalmor destroyed the Empire, no doubt the Thalmor would have taken their war to Skyrim and destroyed the legacy of Talos and his followers forever. Don't underestimate the capability of the Thalmor. I saw a shrine where one Justicar slayed 4 worshippers alone - he died too, mind. lol. Let's not forget their capability with magic! Oh, butUlfirc would shout them all to death?! Forgot that part.

Ulfric is a racist [censored] who is wholly on the wrong side of a war. He desires only power and is a puppet of the Thalmor. All logic dictates that I shouldn't like him. And yet, I freaking love Ulfric Stormcloak. I can't explain why. He's just badass and an enigmatic character. I joined the Imperials because I felt that that was the best side to take in the war for everyone, but when it came time to kill Ulfric, I just felt terrible. I mean, I had just killed the most interesting character in the game. Then who was I left with, General Tulius? Please. He's awful.

Both sides have some serious evil going on, and neither is an easy choice. If I'm going to be logical and do what's best for everyone I would side with the empire. But on the next character I'm making I can't wait to side with Ulfric, because I have a feeling it's going to be a lot more fun.

My next character will be a Redguard who will support the Stormcloaks. I really didn't want to make another Nord, and I think that Redguards siding with them is semi-understandable since Hammerfell rejected the Aldmeri Dominion.

Like I said in an earlier thread, the Empire is basically Vichy France: allowing invaders to run free in exchange for a farcical "peace." Like the leaders of the Vichi government, Tullius and Mede certainly aren't bad men, but they have chosen a path that will inevitably lead to defeat. Ulfric is basically the De Gaulle of Skyrim...such leadership is the best hope for the future.

Still, Elder Scrolls VI may very well have the Thalmor taking over all of Tamriel so that both endings to the civil war will ultimately have the same outcome.