[Chrissie Pillinger]

Well, I don't think Josh can comment on stuff like that at this stage.

[kasia]

By "them" do you mean Obsidian or Bethesda?

Either.

And I'll tell you why: "Christian" is a superset of faiths and is somewhat generic. "Mormon" is a specific faith, with specific donma and history. It would be much easier to offend a specific faith as opposed to a whole religion.

[Emily Graham]

It'd bee good if they did...

[Nienna garcia]

Either.

Well, in the case of Obsidian, same people risked it in Van Buren, and the New Vegas lead designer designed the Mormon town. And I think they tackled it pretty well, without making them a parody like in the case of Hubologists.

[adam holden]

i'm so glad that Sawyer reads and sometimes responds here, I remember following the development of Fallout 2 very closely, and how special I felt when someone like Chris Avellone would reply to something I or a peer said.

I just can't wait until they are allowed to start saying more than "I can't talk about that yet".

Hey, J.E. - can you at least tell us roughly when you expect to be able to start telling us things?


edit: damn I scared him away!

[alicia hillier]

Well, people now at Obsidian (particularly JE Sawyer, who wrote New Canaan) already did it once. So if anyone wouldn't want to risk it (by it, I mean a controversial religious topic), it would more likely be Bethesda, telling Obsidian to cut it.

And that game went unpublished.

My guess is the legal department would throw a hissyfit.

[Rebecca Clare Smith]

And that game went unpublished.

My guess is the legal department would throw a hissyfit.

It didn't go unpublished because of the Mormons. I haven't heard of any IPLY legal department people complaining about it.

Here are some qoutes from http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8115&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40:

I was handling the Mormon area, New Canaan, which was built in a ruined section of Ogden, Utah. I tried to represent them in a respectful manner. Their community was fairly successful as long as it was left alone. When outsiders started to filter in, their rules about the use of alcohol and other substances rubbed non-Mormons the wrong way. The community was also split on how to handle supermutants and ghouls who wanted to convert and be part of the community. Many of the Mormons in NC were big racists and didn't want anything to do with the mutants. The Living Prophet went against their wishes and allowed them in, causing a lot of dissention. It was a fun area to write, but it wasn't necessarily part of the critical path.

Why use a real world religion in the first place?

Because it allowed us to show how members of a real world faith responded to the destruction of the world around them. Their presentation wasn't about showing that they were right or wrong, but how they thought about their traditional codes of behavior in the most trying of circumstances.

Also, considering their extremely large historical presence in Utah, it seemed like a cop-out to just ignore them.

Of course, New Vegas is not set in Utah. But if a future Fallout game were set there, it would actually be offensive to Mormons not to include them.

Making decisions based on the nonsensical cries of a vocal minority is never a good idea. I have no disrespect for Christianity or Mormonism, specifically. I discussed my plot and character ideas with both a very serious Mormon in Black Isle and a former Mormon in Black Isle and they seemed okay with what I was doing. I respected those guys and their knowledge. If a thousand hyperreactive Mormons who wouldn't have bought an M game in the first place get bent out of shape for reasons that I can't fathom, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

For a long time, I've believed that one of the major themes of Fallout was the conflict between post-war (WWII) era naive optimism and the realities of survival in the wasteland. You see this most clearly in the portrayal of the residents of Vault 13 juxtaposed against the communities of the Fallout world. I think the idea of a Mormon community in the wasteland plays into that and gives the player a decent cultural starting point for empathizing with the residents. They aren't followers of a completely fictional cult, they're members of a traditional historical denomination that has been transformed through their extraordinary circumstances.

Many people living in the United States today understand the fundamental concepts of Christianity, and a subset of that group understand the fundamental concepts of Mormonism. Having that background helps the player empathize, in my opinion. It's easier for most people to empathize with familiar things, even transformed. The basic elements have a lot of cultural currency, and thematic ideas pop into a player's head just through the initial presentation.

Do they follow the Ten Commandments? If not, what did they break, and how do they justify it?

Are they polygamists, as the Mormons used to be (and in some cases, still are)? If so, how do they justify that?

Do they still follow a Living Prophet? What happens when two people claim to be the Living Prophet? Are the visions of the Living Prophet genuine, or some hallucination caused by an unknown source?

How do they decide when to let people into their community? Do they accept all believers? Do they reject mutants (echoing the racist past of the Church of Latter-Day Saints) or accept them (reflecting the new stance of the CoLDS)? How do different members feel about this?

How do the people feel about accepting and rejecting people of other beliefs in a time when human resources are so scarce? The bible tells believers to reject and not associate with non-believers. How much do the Mormons enforce this? Are they ever tempted to go against what is written, purely as a matter of survival?

That is why I liked the idea of using a real-world religion (Mormons, specifically, since they fit into the area). I understand where you're coming from, but I think a line can be drawn between good real-world stuff and potentially problematic real-world stuff. I think we all want people to have some frame of reference to the altered world in which they play. It needs to be familiar enough to draw the player in, but foreign enough to make the player think.

I think that a community of religious people surviving in a Vault would have a pretty good chance of preserving the name of their religion and major figures in it. Mormons have traditionally been insanely dedicated to record keeping, especially with regards to genealogy. They have also been extremely community-oriented, making the cooperative preservation of knowledge and tradition more likely than it might be with a lot of other groups.

[Sakura Haruno]

It didn't go unpublished because of the Mormons. I haven't heard of any IPLY legal department people complaining about it.

Here are some qoutes from http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8115&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40:

Because it allowed us to show how members of a real world faith responded to the destruction of the world around them. Their presentation wasn't about showing that they were right or wrong, but how they thought about their traditional codes of behavior in the most trying of circumstances.

Also, considering their extremely large historical presence in Utah, it seemed like a cop-out to just ignore them.

Of course, New Vegas is not set in Utah. But if a future Fallout game were set there, it would actually be offensive to Mormons not to include them.

That's nice, but Sawyer shouldn't be assuming responsibility to determine who should be offended or not. This kind of thing is just asking for trouble. It would be much safer to make up a name and in doing so, maintain plausible deniability. Maybe they could pitch teh idea to the Mormons, but the whole thig is a mess waiting to happen.

[Veronica Flores]

Well, if I were Mormon and a post-apocalyptic game was set in Utah and did not feature any Mormons, I probably would be offended, since that would imply that Mormonism wouldn't survive a nuclear war.

And why would portraying Christianity after the Great War, like in FO3, be OK, and portraying Mormonism not OK?

It would be much safer to make up a name and in doing so, maintain plausible deniability.

To quote Josh again:

I have to say that I don't see why it's inherently better to call something that's clearly Los Angeles "Adytum". I suppose you could say that it's in Lolifornia and that the United States of Flamerica was fighting a war against the Mommunists, but again, if it's that transparent, what's the benefit? A gun is a machine, mass-produced. With a specific name, people associate a lot of quantifiable things with it. Cities, governments, and religions are made up of people and change over time. Los Angeles in 1930 isn't like Los Angeles today and it's doubtful it would be like the Los Angeles of the 2070s. Still, using Los Angeles can allow a certain level of familiarity to play with.

To be honest, I think part of the solution to this problem is to not explicitly ask such questions, as the narrator, but to present situations that cause the audience to ask questions -- many of which may not have been "intended" by the author. A healthy exploration of a theme provokes questions without hammering the audience over the head with the author's ideas/beliefs on the subject.

The legitimacy of Christianity or Mormonism was never a question explicitly (or even implicitly) asked or answered in the VB design. Here is a sample of a situation from VB: the leader of New Canaan is a man named Jeremiah Rigdon. Jeremiah is the Living Prophet of the faith. He claims to receive visions after having fits. He seems to believe this. Many members of the community believe this, but not all do. Some people think that Jeremiah is intentionally fraudulent or that God is not the source of his visions.

Another member of the community is a supermutant Mormon named "Revelation" John. John also sees and hears things that others do not see or hear. He does not believe that his visions are divinely inspired, but a few others in the community do. Some PCs have the ability to recognize that John is suffering from schizophrenia resulting from his time as a Night Kin scout. The implied question is: if John's visions are the result of a medical conditions, couldn't Jeremiah's be natural as well? No definitive answer is given.

Yet another member of the community is a faux-Mormon named Pablo. Pablo claims to be a Mormon, but is just going through the motions so he can live in New Canaan. He is part of a drug-smuggling operation that defies Jeremiah's explicit ban of such substances in the community. While New Canaan is dying, some PCs can figure out a way that they can survive on a long term basis. However, Pablo would have to be the leader of said solution. If he is exposed as a drug smuggler, Jeremiah would almost certainly throw him out of the community -- even if doing so made it difficult for the community to survive. Implied question: is being so strict on religious taboos worth risking destruction? Again, there is no author-defined answer.

Jeremiah has told the members of the community that God once again wants the Mormons to practice polygyny. So many of the men have died off that God sees that practice as vital to their survival. Not all members think this is a good idea, and many outsiders are disgusted by it. This is never "validated" as "true" in the game. It is simply declared by Jeremiah. It's up to the player to decide whether Jeremiah was really inspired, whether he made it up, or whether he simply dreamed it. Another implied question: if Jeremiah did make it all up, is what he's suggesting wrong or bad?

Marshal is a glowing ghoul who converted to Mormonism. He is dying and going mad, and the priest who ministers to him, Jude, is also dying as he cares for him. Many of the Mormons, who hate ghouls to begin with, want Marshal to be cast out. Jeremiah believes it is immoral to risk the lives of outsiders if Marshal goes mad or -- worse yet -- dies somewhere where his body could harm countless travelers. Marshal is isolated, but Jude volunteers to care for him and perform private ceremonies every day. If the PC talks to Marshal, the ghoul begs him or her to help him escape; he does not want the community to suffer because of his presence, and would rather try to wander far out into the desert than watch Jude slowly weaken and die. It is up to the player to decide the proper course of action by questioning the validity and importance of all viewpoints.

I believe these things are controversial in that people could argue many different ways on them. However, I do not believe they are antagonistic, disrespectful, or insulting.

[Tiffany Castillo]

Well, if I were Mormon and a post-apocalyptic game was set in Utah and did not feature any Mormons, I probably would be offended, since that would imply that Mormonism wouldn't survive a nuclear war.

And why would portraying Christianity after the Great War, like in FO3, be OK, and portraying Mormonism not OK?

You aren't equipped to decide who will be offended either, and neither am I. but I've sat in more than one meeting with the legal people shooting down our ideas, and religion is the third rail. It's a risk that need not be taken. The problem is not the inclusion or exclusion per se, but the way they might be portrayed in the game. If they were to find their depiction offensive after the game was published, it could get very expensive resolving the issue. I don't think they are going to take the risk.

[Phoenix Draven]

reading that quote from sawyer regarding the Marshal/Jude scenario gets me even more excited than before... seems a little like the idea was "borrowed" for the Oasis scenario...

or is that common knowledge that I missed somewhere?

[John Moore]

And why would portraying Christianity after the Great War, like in FO3, be OK, and portraying Mormonism not OK?

Followers of less well-known religions tend to be more sensitive about how they are portrayed, because it is easier to spread a false impression when the public at large does not already have a strong preconceived image. Mormanism is pretty big in some areas of the U.S., but it's much less popular in other areas. So, they are more sensitive about potentially negative portayals of their faith on a national level, like in the HBO show Big Love. And mormans are technically christians AFAIK.

[Glu Glu]

Followers of less well-known religions tend to be more sensitive about how they are portrayed, because it is easier to spread a false impression when the public at large does not already have a strong preconceived image. Mormanism is pretty big in some areas of the U.S., but it's much less popular in other areas. So, they are more sensitive about potentially negative portayals of their faith on a national level, like in the HBO show Big Love. And mormans are technically christians AFAIK.

I think if http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_About_the_Mormons%3F can get away with what it did in the whole episode it dedicated to Mormonism, Obsidian/Bethesda can get away with alot less.

[Liv Brown]

now that it seems clear that TES5 won't be coming out for about a century or so - I'm totally excited about new vegas. do you think obsidian will handle DLC too?

[Silencio]

I think if http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_About_the_Mormons%3F can get away with what it did in the whole episode it dedicated to Mormonism, Obsidian/Bethesda can get away with alot less.

I didn't see that episode but South Park can be controversial. Besides its Freedom Of Expression. What if they felt like having Homosixuals in the game? I Myself don't care. People make fun of the Handicapped all the time and nothing happens to them such as Larry The Cable Guy. If people do not like something then they can leave it alone. Not that they would be goofing on The Mormons or Christianity, But I wouldn't mind that .

[[Bounty][Ben]]

I didn't see that episode but South Park can be controversial. Besides its Freedom Of Expression. What if they felt like making fun of Homosixuals? I think that would get them in deeper [censored] honestly. I Myself don't care. People make fun of the Handicapped all the time and nothing happens to them such as Larry The Cable Guy. If people do not like something then they can leave it alone.

Watch SouthPark much?

Its all of the above a child gets killed in [almost] every episode. :chaos:

[Emma Louise Adams]

I didn't see that episode but South Park can be controversial. Besides its Freedom Of Expression. What if they felt like having Homosixuals in the game? I Myself don't care. People make fun of the Handicapped all the time and nothing happens to them such as Larry The Cable Guy. If people do not like something then they can leave it alone. Not that they would be goofing on The Mormons or Christianity, But I wouldn't mind that .

It can be controversial, but that doesn't mean it's any exception to the rule. And South Park, being a TV show rather than a game (even FO3) gets alot more exposure, and has been firmly in the public eye for over 10 years. What about homosixuals? Why wouldn't they be portrayed? Did homosixuality burn in the flames of 2077? And where do handicapped come into it? o_O All I know is, Fallout wouldn't portray such stereotypes in such a demeaning manner as to a show like South Park. see http://southpark.wikia.com/wiki/Mr._Slave for a less than honest potrayal of homosixuality in South Park. Fallout isn't into demeaning stereotypes. If Mormonism is included, I'm sure it wouldn't be anything but an honest look into such a community.

[mimi_lys]

Whole lot of conjecture to say the Mormons would be offended. It should be easy to avoid any slur against them if they are put in the game, though. Could easily have them prospering where others falter, so they'd be in a positive light, etc.

[phillip crookes]

Fallout isn't into demeaning stereotypes.

Andale characterized Republicans as inbred cannibals.

[Rob Davidson]

I suspect Vegas will looks something like the Vegas in Resident Evil: Extinction
http://www.fxguide.com/qt/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/resevilext1png.png
http://www.cgnews.com/images/articles03/residentevil_extinct.jpg
http://www.notrecinema.com/images/cache/wallpaper_53044_10094.jpg

[Paul Rice]

Andale characterized Republicans as inbred cannibals.

And I thought I was the only one who got that idea...

[Emzy Baby!]

I don't know if it has been said before (probably is) but here are my 2 bottlecaps:

Regardless if fallout 3 is considered "Fallout" by the hard-core fanbase I consider it to be. Looking at the wasteland just after leaving the Vault is etched in my memories forever. Fallout in 3d was my dream and it happened. Sure the game has its flaws but I still like it.

Now, New Vegas:

This game has potential, and the mob theme appeals to me. However so does the gang theme. Why not combine these two things. A few rag tag gangs and one or two organised syndicates. Work something out to combine that and you could have a great story.

If New Vegas is located where original vegas is located, you could use the Nevada area to your extand (area 51, Death Valley settlements you name it)

I will not burn the game down right away, but if they screw up I will.

Edit:

Considering the immersion of religion: Do it. Not because we'll be able to bash or demean it in anyway but because it's the obvious choice. In modern day society (and even more in the '50's so most probably also in Pre-war Fallout) religion plays huge part in people's life. When all is good, and no dangers are there in times of peace a lot of people turn to religion.

Now Imagine nuclear destruction and the barren wasteland that is the result of that. Humanity is nearly destroyed and civilisation is gone. You have no idea if you can make it to the next day due to Radiation, raiders, mutated wildlife, no clean water, scarce food you name it.
I find it very hard to believe that people wouldn't turn to religion when that happened. If they turn to religion in good times, they most definitly would in this case...

About the New Vegas look: R.E. Style is okay, needs less sand.

[Rudi Carter]

It can be controversial, but that doesn't mean it's any exception to the rule. And South Park, being a TV show rather than a game (even FO3) gets alot more exposure, and has been firmly in the public eye for over 10 years. What about homosixuals? Why wouldn't they be portrayed? Did homosixuality burn in the flames of 2077? And where do handicapped come into it? o_O All I know is, Fallout wouldn't portray such stereotypes in such a demeaning manner as to a show like South Park. see http://southpark.wikia.com/wiki/Mr._Slave for a less than honest potrayal of homosixuality in South Park. Fallout isn't into demeaning stereotypes. If Mormonism is included, I'm sure it wouldn't be anything but an honest look into such a community.

Southpark is a tv show. Although episodes of TV shows do involve some risk they don't equate to the sort of financial risk a mainstream game entails. Let's look at worst case here. The game is released with the Mormon content, and using the FO3 numbers, ~4.7M copies are distributed for the rollout. It's going to cost less to produce F:NV, but it's still going to be millions, probably tens of millions. Despite what the developers think is a reasonable and fair, perhaps even flattering depiction of Mormons, the Mormons do become offended, and decide to put their foot down (they do this on rare occasion...they are more inclined to let things be).

Most Mormons aren't likely to Play Fallout to start with, so a boycott in itself might not have muc direct effect. Indirectly, however, should the boycott be picked up and amplified by some of the more militant religious groups here in the US, along with people like Fox New and the rest of the "Culture Warrior" mouthpieces, the game could be in real trouble. Something similar happened to Magic Compass, although that movie was definitely ant religious generally.

Point is, this game, or any game, represents a long term and substantial investment. The money ahs alrady been used by the time the game releases, and some set number of units must be sold to recoup costs and build profit for teh company and it's investors. No one is going to want to take any excessive risk to that revenue.

It's easy to argue that it won't happen, and perhaps it probably won't. If it does, the impact may be minimal. But there's a lot of probably and maybes there, and it all revolves around the reactions of a group (Mormons) whose actions are not controlled by the investors. That makes it a gamble, and that's a lot of money.

I get that folks want it in there...they think it will make the game more like VB would ahve been, but we aren't putting up the money for this, and we aren't calling the shots. Beth might decide to risk something like this, but it makes absolutly no business sense. Something like this could wreck the economic viability of the project, and perhaps even the franchise, and the company, from a PR point of view. It's just too risky.

[tegan fiamengo]

Andale characterized Republicans as inbred cannibals.

Well, this isn't characterization if it's true, now is it?

[N3T4]

Shortened (See above for quoted post)

Although I believe you do have a good point, there are a lot of things that could go wrong.
However, as I stated in my previous post, religion is to big an issue not to include it.
Perhaps they could talk to people that are revered in Mormon society, to get their feedback and support?