What constitutes a "good" debate tool is another debate in and of itself. In fact, political bullying is still a viable tactic most frequently seen in commercials especially during election season. Irregardless, I do believe the rules of the forum, however, prohibit abusive speech. This being said, I do believe that a certain someone had definitely stepped out of line, henceforth, now, out of sight.

You're comparing different games with different types of plots. In Morrowind, they didn't want you to know much of what was going on because they wanted to present you with a realm that was shrouded in mystery, the mystery was the plot they went with for that game. In Skyrim the plot line is perhaps more overtly thrown in your face because Skyrim isn't really a mysterious place, its a war torn wasteland thats filled with brutality and civil war. Any character that lives or walks in Skyrim knows this, you would have to have total amnesia to come into Skyrim and not be exposed to the plot line.

Personally? I see it more as "In Morrowind someone who'd actually taken a [censored] literary arts course was writing it, so they used literary tools such as foreshadowing. In Skyrim a monkey wrote it so it all just kinda happens."
There's no reason why Skyrim's plot can't have foreshadowing aswell. For example, why not have the player be attacked by Alduin in two seperate towns (both destroyed) before someone makes the connection you're Dragonborn? Instead they have you literally do a single dungeon, then the plot is revealed. It's just piss-poor writing.

Another example of the poor writing, compare racism of Morrowind to Oblivion to Skyrim.

Morrowind? Xenophobia. The Dunmer hate foreigners in general, believing they're coming into their land and forcing imperialistic traditions onto them; their culture feels threatened. They don't like the Nords because of bitter rivalries, they're not fond of the beast folk due to stupid racism and everyone else is just a more minor victim of xenophobia, nothing more.

Oblivion? The Imperials have far less issues with racism, being open-minded traders and rulers of the Legion. Makes sense, they SHOULD be racism-free. Not all are (such as that crazy religious broad who writes those "Introduction to" books) but it's very very rare compared to Skyrim and Morrowind. Racism you do find is generally between other races, such as nords and dunmer.

Skyrim? It's stupid racism. They hate everyone and everything, though not because their land and culture feels threatened. Oh, it is of course, but only by the high elves and Imperials. That doesn't stop them from hating everyone and everything (cept Orks. Dunno why but Orks never have to deal with racism). Why? [censored] knows why, they just do and they never give reasons why. The most you hear is "I just think Skyrim should be for the Nords" with no actual reason as to WHY. And ironically, their hate for dunmer seems suddenly gone and now they have something against the Khajiit and Argonians. FFS, Skyrim apparently lives in a bubble, with citizens saying "herpderp wut r khajiit" or "curved swords brane nawt compreehend." Hell, they get bonus points for bad writing because the guys who generally ask "wat r khajiit" are the guys running the carriages. Y'know, the guys most likely TO SEE ALL THE [censored] KHAJIIT CARAVANS ON THE ROADS?

"Hey, should we make a small rural area like Morthal or Falkreath ignorant of what Khajiit are?"
"Nah, let's make that guy who's constantly traveling the same routes as them not know them."

GG Skyrim.
Simply the way the racism is written says worlds about the game and it's poor writing.

Nords aren't supposed to be articulate or well spoken. I do agree with you that the dialogue options in Skyrim are a giant let down, more so the lack of choices you have for completing quests. However, the dialogue and the narrow minded views of most of the inhabitants does suit the setting and the motif very well. Nords aren't the type of people you reason with or "convert" to an idealogy or belief system. They're very narrow headed and most of them grow up seeing thrings through the prism of culture. Nords aren't very intelligent, though what they lack in intelligence they make up for with Wisdom.

Eh, im ranting. Personally, I don't have a problem with people who wanted a deeper or more complex game. I wanted that too. But you also have to understand that some of this had to do with setting and plot, not just pure design choices.

Still, what the hell. I'm not asking for ALL of them to be able to give a logical reason for their hate of other races, I'm just asking for SOMEONE to be able to explain it. None of them can.

The High Elves are a good indicator of bad writing too.

Morrowind was "hello I'm a High elf and I think I'm better than you."
Oblivion was "Hello I'm a High elf and I'm kind of a snob."
Skyrim is "I HAVE AN OUTRAGEOUSLY FULL-OF-MYSELF VOICE ACTOR IN ORDER TO INDICATE THAT I AM THE BAD GUY. DID YOU CATCH THIS INDICATION??? GOOD, NOW IF YOU'LL EXCUSE ME I HAVE PUPPIES TO KILL."

Its just a game, man.

If racism bothers you to this extent then you should spend more of your time preaching equality in the real world than on a video game forum.

I agree with you on gameplay elements but story? The civil war story and the Thalmor's involvement wasn't lacking in maturity at all, and the main story, once you learn of Alduin's history and how he came to arrive in present day Skyrim isn't any more immature than their usual main quest stories either. The seconday questline's story (which I believe is a new format, with a primary side quest) is particularly well constructed and much like real life in that there is no clear right and wrong side between the Imperials and Stormcloaks, and it comes down to your own personal opinion on what's best for her people.

I got arrested for assassinating the Emperor's cousin and then I bailed myself out of jail and then Jarl Elisif made me Thane. Something is wrong here.

This is what happens when the fame/infamy meter is taken out of TES. You're a special shining star to everyone, and nothing you do really means anything. Oh wait, hired thugs. Because with my 100 sneak skill and invisibility, the SLEEPING shopkeeper still knew it was me. Maybe Mephala told him/her in a dream.

Yeah. It was totally Mephala.

3. Quest arrows. Do I really need to explain this one? Sure you can turn them off, but the game does not give you directions in the game world to find things. Simple directions like, follow the river east of Whiterun and look for a tall tower straddling the river. Much easier to just follow the quest arrow.

4. Enemy health bars. Would you really know how much health your enemy has left?

as is the case with anything that grows in popularity, the criticism against "accessible" design will always exist. however, as the op mentioned, once people begin articulating their criticism beyond the customary "it's too easy" or "console-ized" only then do we have a more tangible understanding of what's lacking. as someone already observed, many of the "hud" elements are used in an antiquated manner. the intention may have been to alleviate, not necessarily the difficulty, but the challenge of having to spend more time wandering about. for a game that places such a high emphasis on exploration and discovery, you could easily argue that many of these old, tried and true devices or conventions essentially undermine the core gameplay principles and themes, creating an experience that is largely unfocused and more dependent on user involvement.

also, the assumption that community modding is an "essential ingredient," simply because people disagree with the design choices, sort of reveals a fundamental flaw in the way people think about game design. i'm certainly not criticizing community involvement. it has the potential to create this uniquely, reciprocal relationship between developer and player, whose ideas can inform one another, leading to other interesting and innovative ideas. however, relying too much on a consensus, either in agreement or disagreement, hardly suggests anything beyond the obvious, which is that most people simply do not care for change.

I welcome change, but not if it's degrading the quality of the final product rather than making it better.

that should go without saying, though i'm sure there are plenty of masochists out there who feel otherwise. however, "degrading the quality of the final product" doesn't really acknowledge anything beyond a general sentiment, which is to not make things worse. i was building off of someone else's original point describing the way specific gameplay elements, like the hud, undermine specific themes and principles inherent to the design of the game (i.e., the emphasis on exploration).

actually, let me ask prefatory question: do you believe that a game designer(s) can be an auteur (same as any painter, writer, filmmaker, etc.), or do you consider game design more of an arrangement of interchangeable parts?

I think this is one of the more interesting threads I've seen in ages. However, it has stooped to calling one another names so stop it so it can stay open. Attack ideas, not people.

So keep it civil folks. Don't call one another pigheaded or stupid or ignorant and don't post off topic about racism in the game...that is another subject all together. Let's make this a mature discussion where we show respect to one another despite disagreeing. It's perfectly fine to have differing opinions because we all think a bit differently. There is no right or wrong in enjoying the game play you enjoy or not liking what you don't like but there is something unacceptable about calling one another names.

I frequently hear people using the phrase 'hand holding' in relation to Skyrim. I dislike it for reasons I'll expand on below, but that itself is not to say that I agree or disagree; I honestly don't know what people are referring to. This is a big problem when people latch on to popular phrases and use them in place of actual descriptions of their criticisms e.g. "Skyrim's problem is it's too streamlined", "I can't stand how dumbed down Skyrim is", or "There's just too much hand holding".

Now I understand that people may wish to streamline their comments (and I don't know if that joke works, because streamline is such a vague term), but it would help if everybody was specific and gave examples. The phrase that causes the most confusion with me personally is 'hand holding'. If it referred to completing quests with the use of the quest marker, I would understand. I can't be this, though, as the quest marker is optional in the vast majority of situations. I recently begain playing Morrowind for the second time (in nine years), and have played the first hour or so of Oblivion (which I will play once I've finished Morrowind) whilst at the same time enjoying my second play through of Skyrim. I still do not understand precisely what is being referred to when people talk of Skyrim having "too much hand holding". All three games share incredibly similar formats, from what I have seen, and I don't know what it is about Skyrim that holds ones hand so much to the point that the phrase has been a staple of most criticism on this board.

So please share your examples here so that we can all be clear on where it held our hands when it shouldn't have. **TL;DR version over** - screw you lazy RPG loving yet somehow text hating bell-ends though, really.

As for the use of phrases like 'hand holding' and 'dumbed down': Let's start with the latter; a poster recently started a topic in which they stated that they in fact meant "both simplified and accessible" when they said that, citing their example, the menu interface is "dumbed down". This is a case where entirely the wrong language is being used - making something more efficient should never be described as 'dumbing it down'. To be 'dumb', something must be lacking something positive or desirable, such as intelligence or additional function. To say something is dumb for lacking complexity where said complexity would be needless complication and poor design is, well, dumb. So long as function is not limited or removed, something is not dumb because it is easy to navigate - that's just a misunderstanding of the word's meaning, I would actually call it 'intelligent design'; function and efficiency.

But even if you get it right and say that the levelling up process is "dumbed down" because the options have been simplified (funcitonality reduced), understand that it is an incredible patronising and conceited term to use. Programming exists only to serve, so dumbed down programming would exist only to serve those who would appreciate a dumb system - not those who appreciate a more basic, simpler, or less option heavy system, you're saying that they are most comfortable with a 'dumb' system. This insults not only those who, for *many* possible reasons, prefer a less advanced system, but those who do not dislike the system we have in this game, regardless of whether or not they enjoyed or even preferred previous systems. One of the biggest problems I have with our resident 'debbie downers' is the arrogance displayed, often accompanied by sarcasm. If you're one of them, I know better than to change your knobish ways, but if you're not - please be aware that this is how you come across when using these terms.

'Hand holding' is possibly more condescending than 'dumbed down'. Who needs their hand held? Small children. If Skyrim is full of hand holding, and many people are happy with Skyrim, then many people are happy with having their hand held. You're saying that everyone who did not have a problem with the game's execution is someone who needs or likes being treated like a small child. Perhaps, like the alluded to poster and his definition of 'dumbed down', you mean something which is not negative at all. If that is the case, don't use language that IS negative. I can't expand on the term, because I don't even really know what people are referring to - the gameplay mechanics are the same as ever; the only difference I can say is the use of quest markers in place of directions, but accurate directions hold one's hand as much as quest markers. It's like using a GPS or memorising someone's directions - unless you're driving around aimlessley, you're 'having your hand held'. As said, I don't play with quest markers and neither should you if you don't like them. In the rare instance that the location is not one which can be known without using the markers, just have a look at the general area it's pointing to, turn them off, and explore the area to find it.

Anyway, rant aside - please list your examples of hand holding.

-RiC

Ever thought about not thinking so much?