All of this was in Oblivion except the sneak eye and the red dots who was from fallout 3.
Not everybody has good surround systems, kind of liked the dots had been cool to use them for smell to get another Khajiit power )

Quest arrows inside dungeons should be dropped unless the item is well hidden. This dates back to the puzzle box in Morrowind who was hidden at an pretty random place: botom of an shelf in a unimportant room. Had it been in an huge chest next to the boss it would not been an issue.
More annoyed over the total lack of quest description, it would be nice to know who the quest giver was and that city he lived in or faction he was in, and yes the name of the quest object.
An good route to the target is hard with radiant quests, however Daggerfall had decent descriptions for radiant quests 15 years ago.

you mean a piece of sticky tape on the screen??

• Compass and map icons showing locations / points of interest the player hasn't even discovered for themselves
  
• Floating markers within the gameworld itself telling the player which building to go into
  
• Red markers showing where enemies are
  
• Quest markers showing where on the map they need to go
  
• Sound effects and big "YOU'VE DISCOVERED [INSERT LOCATION] text when the player comes within a certain radius of an important location
  
• Enemy health bars
  
• Essential NPCs, so the player doesn't have to deal with the consequences of killing someone important and thus being unable to proceed further in a questline
  
• Essential quest-related items that cannot be dropped, in case the player is stupid enough to drop or sell them
  
• Auto health regen and no armour degradation, so the player can waltz through hundreds of dungeons without needing to plan ahead
  
• Brightly lit dungeons, so the player doesn't need to worry about bringing a torch or feeling too lost and disoriented
  
• Excessive fast-travel, with next to no consequences... so the player can just beam themselves everywhere
  
• Level-scaling, so the player is capable of beating important bosses like Alduin at a fairly low level
  
• Scripted events (like the opening cinematic in Skyrim) that deliberately railroad the player into certain questlines

The Enemy Dots in Compass is in my opinion the biggest hand holding feature in the game. It's like the game treats you like a person who can't see or hear properly. Not everyone has bad vision or noisy environment so the feature shouldn't be forced to everyone. It should be toggleable and off by default.

I don't see health bars as hand holding. The game doesn't have realistic wounding mechanics so you could see from enemy behavior and appearance how wounded they are like in real life. The health bars are the only way to know how wounded opponents are.

Yeah.

EDIT: Surgical tape.

I agree with oblivion i had this weird thing where i could only get it to be too easy or impossible lol

Yeah, I guess that's not gonna solve everyone's problems. Good to see there are console players out there that do not want more simplified, MMO-style play elements. I guess that makes since though, since WoW (and many other MMORPGs) is on PC and those players apparently like this type of stuff.

Not sure what that would do to my warranty and having to pull off a piece of surgical tape every time I wanted to watch a movie might not be good for the TV screen.

Then all I can suggest is squinting your eyes really hard. I feel for you I'm on PS3 and wish there was a happy medium but it's never gonna happen. Play with or without is the best we're gonna get.

I think the problem here is that video game companies generally see newer generations of video game players as having shorter attention spans, While it might not be true in some cases it is. We see people less interested in complex games that takes months if not a year or more to beat such as Civilizations, Empire based games because they require to much attention and not enough thrills and we see huge huge spikes of sales for games like Gears of War and God of War, where it is nothing but simple button mashing action and very little complexity. The sales of simplier games and the occasional addictive yet simple game like Bejewel or Minecraft just suggests to the gaming industry that we as gamers preffer simple games over complex games so they will focus on making their games simplier and prettier with more effects and less in depth content, because they beliieve it will sell more, and for the most part they are actually right as Console gamers buy Halo and Gears of War at expotential rates compared to complex games.

Lets look at a few complex games from the past that have fought with a much simplier counter part. Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter vs VirtuaFighter.
Which ones won and which ones do most people not even remember? VirtuaFighter brought the 3d realism to fighting games, but it didn't have fireballs and super moves, the combos were short 2 to 3 hits and noone got their head ripped off, yet the gameplay was amazingly addictive and mastering it took far more skill then either of its competitors yet it still lost out in the long run because as time went on the younger generations gravitated towards more eye candy, bloody violence and fanastic super powers over a a more complex fighting system.

We have the old RPG games like Arena that required long periods of searching for caves and fort in the wilderness based on some simple directions which made finding the location so much more satisfying then the newer trend of just putting a large magical flag you can see from anywhere on the map to lead you right to it.
In Arena you had to wait for a specific day of the in game month to talk to a Deadric Prince, or a specific time of the day because it was the one day the deadric prince
had the most influence to communicate to the mortal realm, now you can talk to them at any time, day or night, 24 hrs 7 days a week like they suddenly developed a hotline service. We also see changes in basic concepts like lycanthrope and vampirism, at one time lycanthropes still changed once a month forcefully but now you can go several months without using the 'power' or use it whenever you want, its no longer a curse, same with vampirism, sun damage is nothing more then an annoyance to give some people a false sense of fear of the sun but most gamers see it for nothing more then it is, 2 to 5 hps every few seconds out of 500 to 800 hps which means absolutly nothing.

To say video games and in this case Elder Scrolls has not gotten easier is just ignorance of what elder scrolls use to be, be people today don't have the patience for more indepth gameplay anymore..

Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised by how many console players I have found on this forum who want a deep roleplaying experience. I half expected to be the only one but I have found several others in just a few short months.

I dont mind all the things you pointed out but I do wish the game was harder because the challange is part of the fun. Im currently calculating what I gotta do to gimp myself in way that makes sense for my role play and I shouldnt have to do that to make the game fun.

They should've limited people to only one crafting tree and they should've had the Arcane Blacksmithing perk seperate cause I had to get the steel smithing perk to get it and Im using a steel weapon but Im supposed to only specialize in Alchemy.

If the trend of games getting easier continues I may lose interest. All they have to do is give people the option of making the game hard, not what they have now. Master difficulty is not hard. I want to have to strategize and use my best poisons and potions to survive. With my previous character, I have all these powerful poisions and potions and absolutely no reason to use them cause my light attacks alone destroys everything and everyone. I want to have to evade my oponents attacks, not walk right through them.

Thats awesome. I salute you, sir.

You could do what I do which is RP and make up you're own quests, then that gets rid of knowing where you're going but not the enemies.

Actually, its not that bad being on PS3. At first, I was like "no way could I play without a health bar" but then I read some of the other threads of folks preachin the benefits of no HUD play and explaining how to deal with no health bars and now that I have been doing it for a few weeks I am pretty used to it. Don't get me wrong, I'd still love the option of using the status bars, but no HUD play is not as hard as I thought it would be. Plus, with no HUD, the clairvoyance spell seems like less of a "cheat," and I am enjoying using it on occassion instead of a map check to navigate the open world. Sometimes clairvoyance does not work which is a nice touch.

I do a lot of that, just exploring the land and making up my own reasons for why I am going here and not there and entering this cave/dungeon/fort and not that one. Lots of fun and very immersive with no HUD. The other day I was poking my nose in this dark crevice at the base of a cliff near where I had killed a sabercat. I thought it was just one of those dark places in a shadow that would take a second for my eyes to adjust, and there might be some treasure hidden in the shadows. Before I knew it the loading screen took me inside an entire cave complex to explore. It was really cool because it was just like in The Hobbit when the dwarves thought they were in a small shelter from the storm that turned out to be the back door to a huge underground goblin lair. If I had the HUD on, I would have known about the cave complex from a mile away and missed out on the joy of discovery.

Streamlining/Dumbed down - For me, it works like this. There's all sorts of unique elements that can be added to the game. Every movie, storybook etc has a specific theme and an audience it caters to. For example, someone who's never been in love might not appreciate Romeo and Juliet as much as someone who has. Someone who's never felt helpless to change the cards life dealt them might not appreciate Cowboy Bebop as much as someone who has.
Streamlining is basically the desire to expand your audience gone wild. Let's say the devs planned to add very serious philosophical overtones on the pointlessness of war. "Wait, should we include that? Not everyone cares about and/or fully understands philosophical viewpoints on that topic." You're right, let's leave it out so we don't confuse or frustrate anyone.
Next maybe they wanted an action game complete with attack combos and several different moves needing to be pulled off in every fight. "Wait, not everyone is good with action games; some players are quite slow and relaxed and wouldn't appreciate a fast-paced game." You're right, let's omit that then.
Or maybe we should include some RPG elements? Instead of fast-paced fights, let's make things more strategic, where the skill is in building up your character properly. "Wait, some people are bad at properly developing and planning a character, they'd hate it!" You're right, let's leave that out!

That's where the term dumbing down and streamlining comes from. It's not saying it's for stupid people, but rather, instead of picking an area of expertise: a theme and style for the game, they're trying to have EVERYTHING. (streamlining) And since they want everyone to be able to pick up the game, they can't involve, for example, historical topics that would demand some level of college education, because not everyone has that. They can't involve a complex RPG system, because not everyone's experienced with that. The result is that EVERY aspect of the game is adjusted to match the IQ of Mr. Average Joe. EVERY aspect. The story, the complexity, the gameplay, the character design, etc. (dumbing down)

Again, they do this in hopes of inviting everyone to play, but the problem is that Skyrim will ALWAYS be lacking compared to other titles because it's not ambitious in any one direction. For example, I often rant about how the storyline and character customization is absolute crap compared to New Vegas. Why? Because it's [censored] true. "But Skyrim has better world exploration!" Yeah it does, and better graphics. However, a big difference is that Fallout New Vegas knows what it wants to be, Skyrim doesn't. Fallout New Vegas takes a stance and picks a direction knowing full well that yes, there WILL be audiences that it's simply not cut out for, but for those who do prefer that type of game, it's marvelous. Skyrim on the other hand is absolutely phobic of closing out anyone, and the result is that yes, any idiot can pick this game up, but VERY few would walk away praising this game as having the best ______ of any game they've played.

I firmly believe that instead of trying to be EVERYTHING is stupid. FFS, in the basic economic classes I have, I remember a lesson where they taught that if France can produce wine faster and cheaper than the Netherlands, but the Netherlands can produce sofas faster and cheaper, then they both should accept that for maximum productivity. France trying to produce both instead of focusing on their specialty is counter-productive. It's the same concept here. Some might argue they're doing that (with exploration), but the disappointment of Skyrim comes from the fact that this series was once an RPG, now the RPG elements of the game have been streamlined severely.


Hand-holding - The Compass shows you exactly where to go. There is more gold in this game than you could ever possibly need. There's no worry about missing out on "that really OP item" because "that really OP item" is always self-made via crafting. Quests never have real consequences. You CANNOT kill anyone involved with ANY quest. You can't fail, basically. The only place this game lets you fail is in combat. Why can't I fail in quests?

FFS, it's to the point where your imagination has to decide your character's morality. Like as an example, if I blow up Megaton in FO3? Yeah, I'm probably evil. The game takes a stance and says "hey, you're evil." This is GOOD. Again though, Skyrim is SOOOOO phobic of taking stances on anything that the quests provide no information on what's going on. I have to go beat someone up as my job. Why? I don't even [censored] know. I suppose I'm supposed to fill in that blank, but the problem is that when I fill in that blank, there's no point where I get a quest that DOESN'T fit my character and I get to take the stance of "no, I refuse! It goes against my honor!" I do a quest to find a missing person for someone. They accuse the missing person of being a criminal, the missing person answers back and says the group hunting her is actually an evil group of assassins. I think "omg wonder who's right" and make my choice to see who was right.....and the game doesn't tell me. The side I chose says "thanks" and then the game says "THE END LOL NEXT QUEST." Are you serious? Are you THAT phobic of hurting my feelings? Let go of my hand, I'm a [censored] big kid, I'll get over it if I made the wrong choice.
Maybe some people prefer this type of gameplay, where their imagination fills in the blank, but I don't. If I buy a book from the store, I don't expect to open it up and read "Once upon a time, a dragon captured a princess and a prince tried to save her! Then the issue was resolved somehow in what may or may not have been a good resolution. The end!" I expect no less from Skyrim, but sadly, that's truly how most of Skyrim's quests and stories are.

In what way can that which you mentioned here be described as 'hand holding'?

This is a big part of my problem with the use of the phrase. I too think that the dialogue options in this game are very poor, but neither than not the lack of acknowledgement of the player's choices can be described as 'hand holding'.

Not even close, it's like describing the lack of realistically acculimating snow as 'hand holding' - the words do not match what you're trying to say.

What would you call it? I am not sure that complaining about lack of consequences for your choices is the same as the snow not accumulating, but I have already switched from using "dumbed down" to "simplified," so if you can suggest a less offensive phrase for "hand holding" I will try to remember to use it.

It matches what he's trying to say because the game won't allow him to fail. It's holding his hand to make sure he succeeds.
As I stated in my post, the only place you can fail in this game is in combat. You can't fail in quests. You can't fail in factions and relationships.
When the game only provides ONE way of doing things, it's literally holding our hands and showing us the one, the only correct path. To add to it, the compass shows you exactly where to go.

That's where the phrase comes from. If a guy says "Deliver this the alchemist in whiterun," then ok, let me try it. If there are two alchemists in whiterun? Let me try to figure out which one that person meant. If the alchemist is dead, let me figure out what to do now. If I have a choice on who to believe when I have two people pointing at each other and calling each other traitors, let my choice of who to believe have consequences. Instead, there's only one alchemist, there's an arrow pointing DIRECTLY at her and in the case she's dead or something, the arrow will point at where to go, with my character being told "YOU HAVE AN UNEXPLAINABLE DESIRE TO INVESTIGATE HER GARDEN!" No, [censored] that, let me figure that out.

That's his complaint. It's that in the scenario where two people call each other traitors and I make a choice, there isn't a scenario where I choose wrong and I get punished for it. Instead, no matter who I choose, the other person will say "thanks, you chose correctly" and reward me and the organization will now function traitor-free. The choices are pseudo-choices with no actual impact and consequences are LITERALLY non-existent.

You can't fail.

Exactly what I was going to say.

And let's not forget those sparkly little stars Blizzard start putting on quest items. Those things were visible from miles away, almost.

And then they did the same thing in Rift. sigh.

Very nice. Thanks.

Here is what the real problem is.

People are upset that features they loved in past games were removed and therefor take that anger/frustration out by claiming that the game has been dumbed down so it can hold peoples hands.


Now these are all bias statements because never once did Bethesda claim to remove anything from the game to dumb it down. I know the biggest argument is that Todd said they didn't want a "spreadsheet" element to the game, but people seemed to miss WHY he removed it. It wasn't because it was hard, but because a good majority of people who played Oblivion and Morrowind admitted to never getting past the first 2 hours because they would make a character, and decided they messed up on the stats and reroll. Todd did not want that to happen in Skyrim, so he removed that so the focus on the game was the world and the game, not making powerbuilds on a spreadsheet. However people ASSUME it was removed because people are to dumb but that isn't the case. The fact is Todd wanted people to focus on the game and have fun just playing a game, so they did away with a feature they felt hindered that goal.


Here is a better way to put it. Someone was complaining about how pants were removed from the game and he didn't understand what why it was so hard for people to grasp the concept of pants to remove them. But see, this again is assumption. He is right, pants are not a hard concept to grasp. So therefor the removal of them has nothing to do with making the game easy now does it? So maybe, they were removed because Bethesda felt they could improve the system, or felt they were a pointless feature. Not because they were to hard for dumb people to understand.


Anyone who says the game is dumbed down, holding hands or being streamlined is a biased upset devoted fan boi who just honestly needs to get over it and understand that Bethesda can do what ever they want with their game. I for one am glad they are trying to be innovative.

You're one of the debbie downers I was referring to, so thanks for responding

1, 2 & 3 - I can understand this falling into the description of the (still needlessley condescending) term; these can all be switched off though
4 - Cite one example of when the 'Location Discovered' message makes something easier for you or holds your hand. If you're travelling to a village or cave, approach said village or cave and it says 'Village/Cave Discovered' - how is that any more of a spoiler than the fact that you can already see that you're at that location?
5 - How is enemy health bars 'holding your hand'? If you don't like enemy health bars, which have been a staple of the series and are in no way exclusive to Skyrim, a game which many Elder Scrolls fans like to suggest 'holds your hand' more than previous titles, I can understand that but why on Earth would you choose to describe those health bars as 'holding your hand'? Also, TURN THEM OFF
6 - I dislike essential NPCs too, and can see why this could be described using the needlessley patronising and obnoxious term. A simple message a la Morrowind (you have severed the threads of fate etc.) would be much better. This is so far the only valid example of 'hand holding' that cannot be disabled.
7 - Auto health regeneration does not protect the player past the first few hours of play. The amount of health it regenerates and the time it takes to do so is not even close to protecting the player, let alone to the extent that it prvents Armour degradation is something that should definitely have been kept, but to describe that as 'holding your hand' is just silly. If you really must describe the removal of an interesting and important combat related element in an overly insulting manner, 'dumbed down' would be the way to put it.
8 - I'm fine with the dungeons, but I can see how people who preferred them to be more realistically lit could, if they wanted to take the tone of a conceited critic, desribe it as hand holding. That's valid example number two.
9 - Don't use fast travel. Again, I don't know why anybody would choose to describe this as 'holding the player's hand' - and I don't say that to be pedantic, it's just not a description that fits that which you're trying to describe. I would say that people who fast travel all the time are, at worst, lazy - but not 'having their hand held'.
10 - "Player is capable of beating important bosses like Alduin at a fairly low level" - this does not affect you or I. Perhaps some players out there decide to breeze through the main quest and not level up. That's not me, nor is it you. I would wager that fighting Alduin with low level equipment at a low level would be pretty damn difficult, but as I say - neither of us are doing that so why is it a criticism of yours? It also has nothing to do with holding anybody's hand.
11 - Scripted events have nothing to do with hand holding. The opening cinematic does nothing but put the player into the game, no more than the opening sequences of Morrowind or Oblivion. You're a prisoner who espaces execution when a dragon attacks - that does not "railroad" anybody into anything whatsoever.

Grand total of two valid criticisms our ot eleven.

For a person who comes across to me as a miserable, never satisfied complete downer of a gamer, you really didn't provide much when given a forum to air your reasons for being so.

-RiC