Here is what the real problem is.

People are upset that features they loved in past games were removed and therefor take that anger/frustration out by claiming that the game has been dumbed down so it can hold peoples hands.


Now these are all bias statements because never once did Bethesda claim to remove anything from the game to dumb it down. I know the biggest argument is that Todd said they didn't want a "spreadsheet" element to the game, but people seemed to miss WHY he removed it. It wasn't because it was hard, but because a good majority of people who played Oblivion and Morrowind admitted to never getting past the first 2 hours because they would make a character, and decided they messed up on the stats and reroll. Todd did not want that to happen in Skyrim, so he removed that so the focus on the game was the world and the game, not making powerbuilds on a spreadsheet. However people ASSUME it was removed because people are to dumb but that isn't the case. The fact is Todd wanted people to focus on the game and have fun just playing a game, so they did away with a feature they felt hindered that goal.

Here is a better way to put it. Someone was complaining about how pants were removed from the game and he didn't understand what why it was so hard for people to grasp the concept of pants to remove them. But see, this again is assumption. He is right, pants are not a hard concept to grasp. So therefor the removal of them has nothing to do with making the game easy now does it? So maybe, they were removed because Bethesda felt they could improve the system, or felt they were a pointless feature. Not because they were to hard for dumb people to understand.

Anyone who says the game is dumbed down, holding hands or being streamlined is a biased upset devoted fan boi who just honestly needs to get over it and understand that Bethesda can do what ever they want with their game. I for one am glad they are trying to be innovative.

Okay, now you are just being derogatory to anyone who feels like the game could be improved.

You're one of the debbie downers I was referring to, so thanks for responding

1, 2 & 3 - I can understand this falling into the description of the (still needlessley condescending) term; these can all be switched off though
4 - Cite one example of when the 'Location Discovered' message makes something easier for you or holds your hand. If you're travelling to a village or cave, approach said village or cave and it says 'Village/Cave Discovered' - how is that any more of a spoiler than the fact that you can already see that you're at that location?
5 - How is enemy health bars 'holding your hand'? If you don't like enemy health bars, which have been a staple of the series and are in no way exclusive to Skyrim, a game which many Elder Scrolls fans like to suggest 'holds your hand' more than previous titles, I can understand that but why on Earth would you choose to describe those health bars as 'holding your hand'? Also, TURN THEM OFF

There is a difference between constructive criticism and mindless bashing.

There is a difference between constructive criticism and mindless bashing. There are countless threads that point out problems with how Bethesda could have made the game better and as a fan of Bethesda I agree with them and have openly supported a few. Heck I have even made threads myself pointing out flaws in this game how it could be improved. However the fact is that people who start bashing Bethesda about how they are dumbing the game down to hold peoples hands are not being constructive in anyway shape or form and I could care less if I hurt their feelings because when they talk about how the game is being made easy for stupid people its clear they don't care how much their words hurt.

The pure simple fact is, that the mentality and personality these people project would get you fired if you acted such a way in a work place yet you think its acceptable on forums? I am sorry but I grow tired of seeing "This game is horrible, Bethesda is stupid for trying to dumb down the game. If people cant grasp the concept of spreadsheets then they shouldn't play this game in the first place. I hope Bethesda goes out of business for trying to turn this into call of duty." And it has no place what so ever on these forums. It is just bias and it doesn't help Bethesda improve the game in any way shape or form.

Are you implying our posts here are mindless bashing?

You're one of the debbie downers I was referring to, so thanks for responding

-RiC

Streamlining/Dumbed down - <<>>

Hand-holding - The Compass shows you exactly where to go. There is more gold in this game than you could ever possibly need. There's no worry about missing out on "that really OP item" because "that really OP item" is always self-made via crafting. Quests never have real consequences. You CANNOT kill anyone involved with ANY quest. You can't fail, basically. The only place this game lets you fail is in combat. Why can't I fail in quests?

FFS, it's to the point where your imagination has to decide your character's morality. Like as an example, if I blow up Megaton in FO3? Yeah, I'm probably evil. The game takes a stance and says "hey, you're evil." This is GOOD. Again though, Skyrim is SOOOOO phobic of taking stances on anything that the quests provide no information on what's going on. I have to go beat someone up as my job. Why? I don't even [censored] know. I suppose I'm supposed to fill in that blank, but the problem is that when I fill in that blank, there's no point where I get a quest that DOESN'T fit my character and I get to take the stance of "no, I refuse! It goes against my honor!" I do a quest to find a missing person for someone. They accuse the missing person of being a criminal, the missing person answers back and says the group hunting her is actually an evil group of assassins. I think "omg wonder who's right" and make my choice to see who was right.....and the game doesn't tell me. The side I chose says "thanks" and then the game says "THE END LOL NEXT QUEST." Are you serious? Are you THAT phobic of hurting my feelings? Let go of my hand, I'm a [censored] big kid, I'll get over it if I made the wrong choice.
Maybe some people prefer this type of gameplay, where their imagination fills in the blank, but I don't. If I buy a book from the store, I don't expect to open it up and read "Once upon a time, a dragon captured a princess and a prince tried to save her! Then the issue was resolved somehow in what may or may not have been a good resolution. The end!" I expect no less from Skyrim, but sadly, that's truly how most of Skyrim's quests and stories are.

They accuse the missing person of being a criminal, the missing person answers back and says the group hunting her is actually an evil group of assassins. I think "omg wonder who's right" and make my choice to see who was right.....and the game doesn't tell me. The side I chose says "thanks" and then the game says "THE END LOL NEXT QUEST." Are you serious? Are you THAT phobic of hurting my feelings? Let go of my hand, I'm a [censored] big kid, I'll get over it if I made the wrong choice.
Maybe some people prefer this type of gameplay, where their imagination fills in the blank, but I don't. If I buy a book from the store, I don't expect to open it up and read "Once upon a time, a dragon captured a princess and a prince tried to save her! Then the issue was resolved somehow in what may or may not have been a good resolution. The end!" I expect no less from Skyrim, but sadly, that's truly how most of Skyrim's quests and stories are.

Anyone who says the game is dumbed down, holding hands or being streamlined is a biased upset devoted fan boi who just honestly needs to get over it and understand that Bethesda can do what ever they want with their game. I for one am glad they are trying to be innovative.

You're one of the debbie downers I was referring to, so thanks for responding

1, 2 & 3 - I can understand this falling into the description of the (still needlessley condescending) term; these can all be switched off though
4 - Cite one example of when the 'Location Discovered' message makes something easier for you or holds your hand. If you're travelling to a village or cave, approach said village or cave and it says 'Village/Cave Discovered' - how is that any more of a spoiler than the fact that you can already see that you're at that location?
5 - How is enemy health bars 'holding your hand'? If you don't like enemy health bars, which have been a staple of the series and are in no way exclusive to Skyrim, a game which many Elder Scrolls fans like to suggest 'holds your hand' more than previous titles, I can understand that but why on Earth would you choose to describe those health bars as 'holding your hand'? Also, TURN THEM OFF
6 - I dislike essential NPCs too, and can see why this could be described using the needlessley patronising and obnoxious term. A simple message a la Morrowind (you have severed the threads of fate etc.) would be much better. This is so far the only valid example of 'hand holding' that cannot be disabled.
7 - Auto health regeneration does not protect the player past the first few hours of play. The amount of health it regenerates and the time it takes to do so is not even close to protecting the player, let alone to the extent that it prvents Armour degradation is something that should definitely have been kept, but to describe that as 'holding your hand' is just silly. If you really must describe the removal of an interesting and important combat related element in an overly insulting manner, 'dumbed down' would be the way to put it.
8 - I'm fine with the dungeons, but I can see how people who preferred them to be more realistically lit could, if they wanted to take the tone of a conceited critic, desribe it as hand holding. That's valid example number two.
9 - Don't use fast travel. Again, I don't know why anybody would choose to describe this as 'holding the player's hand' - and I don't say that to be pedantic, it's just not a description that fits that which you're trying to describe. I would say that people who fast travel all the time are, at worst, lazy - but not 'having their hand held'.
10 - "Player is capable of beating important bosses like Alduin at a fairly low level" - this does not affect you or I. Perhaps some players out there decide to breeze through the main quest and not level up. That's not me, nor is it you. I would wager that fighting Alduin with low level equipment at a low level would be pretty damn difficult, but as I say - neither of us are doing that so why is it a criticism of yours? It also has nothing to do with holding anybody's hand.
11 - Scripted events have nothing to do with hand holding. The opening cinematic does nothing but put the player into the game, no more than the opening sequences of Morrowind or Oblivion. You're a prisoner who espaces execution when a dragon attacks - that does not "railroad" anybody into anything whatsoever.

Grand total of two valid criticisms our ot eleven.

For a person who comes across to me as a miserable, never satisfied complete downer of a gamer, you really didn't provide much when given a forum to air your reasons for being so.

-RiC

Really? This name calling crap again? Does this even deserve a response? Probably not.

The compass can be turned off. If the guy at the drive through asks "Do you want fries with that?" and you don't like fries, do like they said in the 80s and "Just Say No".
-RiC

I take it you are referring to a certain tavern girl in Whiterun? If so, I agree completely. I did the quest one way, wasn't happy with the result, and reloaded to see both sides. Both conclusions were unsatisfying. There are a few quests like that that leave you wondering "Did I do the right thing for my character's morality (or lack of)?"

i miss in knights of the nine, where you had to pray at the nine divines shrines, and all the priest gave you was a map. no quest markers. It took me forever to find all of them because the map was a little misleading at times.

Meanwhile, one of my "standard set" of mods that I use every time I install a new arrangement for Oblivion is the one that adds map markers for more of the locations in the world. Including the doomstones and shrines. Go figure. (That said, I got that mod long before I got access to KotN....)


-----

reading further.... as usual, "hand holding" and "streamlining" become generic slurs (similarly to "casual") thrown at any game concept that people don't like. Some of the things I see being labeled under "hand holding" aren't anything of the sort. They're just features people are against.


Things like level scaling, fast travel, scripted events (an actual plotline! how dare they!), the level of lighting in dungeons, OMG health bars..... many of these things aren't new to TES in Skyrim (most were in Oblivion, some were in Morrowind), and certainly aren't rare in cRPGs in general. Need to stop talking like these are some amazing new insult to all "real" games.

Like its any different then people claiming the game has been made simple for stupid people to play. Look my post was direction towards no one. Anyone who takes offense to it is probably because I hit a nerve when calling people out and the fact is that anyone who gets offended is probably the type of person I was talking about. If you take offense in what I said, it is your problem because nothing I said was directed towards anyone personally. So maybe you need to get over it. Me calling the heartless elitist names, is no worse then some of the stuff those heartless elitist say towards the player base of this game and Bethesda itself.

Anyone who says the game is dumbed down, holding hands or being streamlined is a biased upset devoted fan boi who just honestly needs to get over it

There is a difference between constructive criticism and mindless bashing. There are countless threads that point out problems with how Bethesda could have made the game better and as a fan of Bethesda I agree with them and have openly supported a few. Heck I have even made threads myself pointing out flaws in this game how it could be improved. However the fact is that people who start bashing Bethesda about how they are dumbing the game down to hold peoples hands are not being constructive in anyway shape or form and I could care less if I hurt their feelings because when they talk about how the game is being made easy for stupid people its clear they don't care how much their words hurt.

The pure simple fact is, that the mentality and personality these people project would get you fired if you acted such a way in a work place yet you think its acceptable on forums? I am sorry but I grow tired of seeing "This game is horrible, Bethesda is stupid for trying to dumb down the game. If people cant grasp the concept of spreadsheets then they shouldn't play this game in the first place. I hope Bethesda goes out of business for trying to turn this into call of duty." And it has no place what so ever on these forums. It is just bias and it doesn't help Bethesda improve the game in any way shape or form.

Nope, I was stating that a lot of it goes on in the forums. I was only pointing out the real problem behind the concept of a gaming being dumbed down. Its a derogatory statement that people are too dumb to play this game unless it was made easy. Yet it is a bias statement because things that have been removed, such as my spreadsheet example, was because Bethesda felt it took away from the immersion of the game and wanted to try something new. To jump to the conclusion that it is so dumb people can play the game is rather heartless and very bias.

@Sotak

I get what you're sayin. Your comments were not directed at any specific person, you appreciate constructive criticism but don't appreciate folks who are just being derogatory.

Part of the issue here is that before you jumped on the thread, we had a nice discussion going without anyone being derogatory. So, your initial post, which I understand was responding to the OP and not to any post on this thread, felt a little like a personal attack to some of the folks on this thread who were expressing constructive criticisms. But that wasn't your intent.

So, we are all good here now, right?

Note: I take a while putting together my responses and this thread is very active, that's why I've been lagging so far behind - I appreciate your posts and was not intentionally ignoring you.

It matches what he's trying to say because the game won't allow him to fail. It's holding his hand to make sure he succeeds.
As I stated in my post, the only place you can fail in this game is in combat. You can't fail in quests. You can't fail in factions and relationships.
When the game only provides ONE way of doing things, it's literally holding our hands and showing us the one, the only correct path. To add to it, the compass shows you exactly where to go.

That's where the phrase comes from. If a guy says "Deliver this the alchemist in whiterun," then ok, let me try it. If there are two alchemists in whiterun? Let me try to figure out which one that person meant. If the alchemist is dead, let me figure out what to do now. If I have a choice on who to believe when I have two people pointing at each other and calling each other traitors, let my choice of who to believe have consequences. Instead, there's only one alchemist, there's an arrow pointing DIRECTLY at her and in the case she's dead or something, the arrow will point at where to go, with my character being told "YOU HAVE AN UNEXPLAINABLE DESIRE TO INVESTIGATE HER GARDEN!" No, [censored] that, let me figure that out.

That's his complaint. It's that in the scenario where two people call each other traitors and I make a choice, there isn't a scenario where I choose wrong and I get punished for it. Instead, no matter who I choose, the other person will say "thanks, you chose correctly" and reward me and the organization will now function traitor-free. The choices are pseudo-choices with no actual impact and consequences are LITERALLY non-existent.

You can't fail.

You're wrong. I have failed a couple of quests. My target was killed by an outside npc during a brawl and it may have been another radiant quest where the person i was to save was killed. I've also had a bunch of quests where i could try and complete them in the fashion i felt fit...stealth, combat, or magick. I had tons of interesting choices to make during the Main Quest, Daedric Quests, and even side quests which had significant effects on the outcome. Im about 100% sure you're one of those people that invests tons of hours into Skyrim and probably a little less on these forums, but always feels the need to let some sort of anger out by actually making up false negative things that aren't true in an attempt to try and prove you're some sort of all knowing Rpg god.

Hand-holding - The Compass shows you exactly where to go. There is more gold in this game than you could ever possibly need. There's no worry about missing out on "that really OP item" because "that really OP item" is always self-made via crafting. Quests never have real consequences. You CANNOT kill anyone involved with ANY quest. You can't fail, basically. The only place this game lets you fail is in combat. Why can't I fail in quests?

FFS, it's to the point where your imagination has to decide your character's morality. Like as an example, if I blow up Megaton in FO3? Yeah, I'm probably evil. The game takes a stance and says "hey, you're evil." This is GOOD. Again though, Skyrim is SOOOOO phobic of taking stances on anything that the quests provide no information on what's going on. I have to go beat someone up as my job. Why? I don't even [censored] know. I suppose I'm supposed to fill in that blank, but the problem is that when I fill in that blank, there's no point where I get a quest that DOESN'T fit my character and I get to take the stance of "no, I refuse! It goes against my honor!" I do a quest to find a missing person for someone. They accuse the missing person of being a criminal, the missing person answers back and says the group hunting her is actually an evil group of assassins. I think "omg wonder who's right" and make my choice to see who was right.....and the game doesn't tell me. The side I chose says "thanks" and then the game says "THE END LOL NEXT QUEST." Are you serious? Are you THAT phobic of hurting my feelings? Let go of my hand, I'm a [censored] big kid, I'll get over it if I made the wrong choice.
Maybe some people prefer this type of gameplay, where their imagination fills in the blank, but I don't. If I buy a book from the store, I don't expect to open it up and read "Once upon a time, a dragon captured a princess and a prince tried to save her! Then the issue was resolved somehow in what may or may not have been a good resolution. The end!" I expect no less from Skyrim, but sadly, that's truly how most of Skyrim's quests and stories are.