Does anyone think it possible that Bethesda knocked the character build out because of complaints in Oblivion?

Oh. My mistake.

Regarding your latest: the official reason given is because Bethesda didn't want to feel like they were hemming you in at the very start of the game. So they switched to the new class-less system with perks.

And that only succeeded in delaying how long it took for you to get hemmed in. A bad trade, because now the player no longer has sufficient control over where his class becomes his class. Now, instead of people complaining about classes being too strict, they are complaining about perks being too strict.

And given Bethesda's track record, the response is going to be: "why do we need skills? Everyone just complains about feeling penned in, so why don't we just get rid of all the individual skills and just lump everything under the combat/magic/stealth umbrella and just do everything with perks? And if the player doesn't like the build they are moving towards, we'll give him this nifty little "redo" button so he can redistribute all his perks more to his liking. That's deeper! That's Streamlined?!"

I'd like to stay and chat...but my journal has a lot of unfinished business I should be attending to...till next time.
Greg

no. if you want to stop complaints about one of the systems in your game you do not replace it with a worse one.

Still here, and I still think Skyrim is the worst TES game to date.

How is it a strawman arguement?

There are 'vets' talking about TES being diluted.

I am simply stating that, when considering the genre as a whole, these 'vets' are saying nothing new that has not been said since the first spoken word game.

Graphics used to be a hot topic when games 'evolved'. Everyone was saying we were going to sacrifice content for a spanky looking game, and indeed you still see this sentiment.

You want to call yourself a vet, you're disappointed with the game, fine. Entirely your choice.

I am disappointed with a few things in Skyrim, and every TES game.

Just understand, one newcomer's perfect game is an old vet's watered down platformer.

I am agreeing with you, to an extent.

Probably typed that one on your iphone. I really take offense to "svcky". You're not a fan of TES, if you say "svcky". Sorry, cousin, doesn't happen.


It's the nature of the beast that is Skyrim......I feel you......and, I understand. Would a hug suffice? haha.

Yeah. Somethings just ARE. And it's hard to accept. (it is). There are things that have been removed. And it needs to be heard.

Nothing wrong with that. Now, if you will excuse me, I'm going to go over to my windows 98 machine, and load up Daggerfall again.

That's why most things that required thought or attention are gone. Any choice outside of race at character creation (ie class, attributes, majors, birth signs), no degradation, auto health regen etc. So it would be easier, less to think or worry about and get you into the action faster. It also makes it easier for dabblers and samplers, that don't really want choice and are just here for the ride. The craziest thing is Beth admitting this throughout their pre release PR.

I don't see how every character should be able to get to 100 in Attributes, it happens even if you don't want it too. The only way you can avoid it is either stop leveling early around level 20 which I definitely reccomend for Vanilla Oblivion or put one point into Luck or Personality which gives you some room but then that gimps you due to not having a high enough Strength or Endurance. Skyrim is better off with the 3 Attributes it currently has and the other effects are still there just in different places. Would I like an Attribute system similar to the previous games, yes but only if it's like Fallout 3 and I doubt that's going to happen, too many people would scream "Too much Fallout in my TES".

Thomas- Bethesda has made Skyrim the Halo of the Elder Scrolls.

But all those people who post that the game is tremendous have me worried; what if Bethesda is right on the bottom line? And then I think of genius talent I've seen in my lifetime, and how it could reach almost all audiences- like the Beatles. Like Mark Twain. I was hoping that was where Bethesda was heading; not going the other direction.

[Geico Guy]"Did this little piggy go wee wee wee all the way home??"[/Geico Guy]

In other words, dum... oh wait, streamlined.

Okay, thanks for clarifying your argument. I misunderstood a bit at first.

Morrowind has more skills, more weapon types, more armor pieces, more equip slots, more material types, more spell options, more enchantment options, quest journal that required you to actually pay attention and not follow an arrow, more factions, and more depth than Skyrim. I'm sure I left some things out too

Skyrim has better graphics (though each game had great graphics for their time of release), everyone talks (even when they shouldn't), can create your own gear, repeatable quests, better character creation

Skyrim is great. Morrowind was the only other TES game that has kept me playing this long, although I've only been playing since Morrowind. Oblivion was just not interesting.

But...

It's pretty clear to see that they have cut most of the complexity out of the game.

I would argue that the game has evolved and is better off.

If it's evolved, then the gaming community as a whole must have devolved. Better off? Why would anybody want less?

Erandur, Bethesda told us in pre-releases, but that didn't prepare me for the gut of character building and the lack of interaction with NPC's.

But you're right- Todd Howard announced these changes as if there were great things.

I agree with 50% of that statement.

It has evolved (into an action game), but it is not better off.

It did me, I knew full and well where we were going. When every time they announced an added feature to Sky, they told us of two things that got axed. I saw Oblivion all over again. But somehow, Beth managed to make Oblivion look like Morrowind when compared to Skyrim. Pre release threads are filled with the Xarneverines predictions. The biggest, being a Nirn without Spell Creation.

Yeah, I agree here.....

I fit into the "watered down platformer" category. I admit it. See?

What he is sayin' basically is ....chill out. We are in the same boat.

Actually Morrowinds text was a drag to read with it's foney pseudo olde english that droned on and on without getting anywhere. Skyrim not being as bad but has taken a step back from the restriction voice files made in oblivion, which is just a shame when npcs drone on about some innane crud over have other choices and things to say.

I'll add in a tangent regarding the character building: The way the MMO scene has gone the last few years seems to focus on min-maxing. Getting the last bit of mitigation, DPS, mana per second, etc out of your character. This requires a lot of thought and thus the spreadsheet. Well attributes can add variables to determine how hard you hit with your sword, how much mana you have, how fast it regenerates, etc. So did Bethesda streamline the process to just the skills plus perks to keep it simple?? Something that even the great MMO plague that is WoW did not do?

I had no beef with Morrowinds style, but that's more personal opinion.


Pretty much, Id expect Skyrims 'attribute derivatives' system in a game like the Fable series, if it had attributes, or more appropriately, derivatives of certain aspects of what the attributes used to represent.

Really try on Master from the beginning and see if you are still so cocky, people like you sit on lower difficulties, power game through then come here and laugh at Skyrim for being Easy, its really quite pathetic.

Sorry, but Im still here and I think Skyrim is a svcky TES game.

When I played Morrowind the feeling I got from that game was amazing. When I tried to enthuse people to buy the game I went:
Its like its a game made by people who like games, instead of only money. Its like they said 'What would I like to do in a game?' and then just put it in, for you to play with. You can do anything with your world. Want to permanently make peaceful a bandit cave to roleplay being an outlaw? Get their disposition to 100. Dont want to travel halfway across the map? Make a powerful jump spell, and dont forget to cast slowfall.
Want to kill the main quest givers? Go ahead, its your game.

That feeling is what got me hooked on TES, the feeling that it was a game made by gamers.
This is gone completely.
Skyrim is generic, thirteen a dozen, restricted, arbitrarily hard-capped and in places linear.
This is no longer a series made by people who love games, or gamers.

And these are just the mechanics mind you. I havent even touched the dissapointments with storyline or (lack of) new lore.