Common misconception. Nationalism shouldn't be mistaken for simple hatred and racism.

Shows a lack of understanding of Thalmor tactics and beliefs/goals.
Makes claims without citing sources.
Shows only a basic understanding of tamriel geography and politics.

3/10

See me after class!

The Stormcloaks aren't Nazi's. Just because something is different does not mean it's bad. The Stormcloaks May not like other races. But there are a variety of races in the Stormcloaks. The two [censored] Nords harassing that woman when you first enter Windhelm are mad because she has no stance on the war. I do not support this and i would have killed them both if one of them wasn't essential. Now. When you go to join up. Ulfric's legate sends you to go and kill an Ice Wraith to prove your strength. Afterward, you are accepted. The people that support the Stormcloaks think that Ulfric thinks Skyrim belongs to the Nords. He thinks Skyrim belongs to it's people. Nord or otherwise. He goes about it the wrong way though. And i hope in the dlc we get to dethrone him as he is unfit to lead.

Ulfric needs less to be high king and more put into a general position.(Something similar to how Galmar is to him right now) But whoever the high king is needs to seperate from the empire or at least convince them that the WGC is the most horrible idea its ever had. The longer everyone stays shackled by WGC the worse it'll be when they finally renounce the thing. Giving masterminds plenty of time to plan is always a VERY bad move.

Ulfric was a Thalmor Agent before. He did change his ways. Even after we won the Great War Titus Mede the II still gave in to the White Gold Concordant. My character proudly fought for the Empire before the White Gold Concordant was signed. The Imperials are a shadow of their former selves and have no business trying to tell the citizens of Skyrim who to worship. They are no better then the Thalmor now. Neither are the Stormcloaks. Once again i hope that we can kill Ulfric and take control of the Stormcloaks ourselves. and lead it the way that we want to. Or at least convince him to step down as leader. The Stormcloaks are the right choice.

My character is an Argonian by the way.

Ulfric was unwilling Thalmor agent, theres a difference.

There is no indication, much less proof, that Ulfric was ever a Thalmor agent, willing or otherwise. The dossier refers to him as an "asset." In the language of intel, an asset is something that is considered useful or potentially useful to one's goals. A rock can be an asset if one is within my reach at the exact moment I need it to crack someone's skull open. That doesn't mean the rock agrees with my plan or willingly participates in it... it's just something I can use to my advantage if it's in the right place at the right time.

Ulfric's drive for Skyrim's independence and the resulting war with the Empire are things that the Thalmor believe will be beneficial to them over the longterm, provided the war remains undecided for as long as possible and he doesn't win it. They no doubt thought the exact same thing about the deal he was given in Markarth with regard to open Talos worship, since it gave them the opportunity to insist on a physical presence in Imperial territory for enforcement of the WGC when the ink on the treaty's paperwork was barely even dry.

That doesn't make Ulfric their "agent" in either case.

Come again? by both those definition he was an agent of the Thalmor cause. He didn't knowingly help the Thalmor, but he was agent none the less.

This.

They never refer to him as one, only as an "asset." My understanding is that in the language of intel, an "agent" is one who is actively employed by the agency in question. Someone who works for the CIA is a CIA agent; someone who does not work for the CIA but who can be manipulated by them or who does things that they can make use of is not an agent, but an asset.

At any rate, when people toss out the statement that Ulfric is or was an agent of the Thalmor, it is generally seen and/or intended to indicate that he is or was working to further their goals because he is or was in collaboration with them. They are using the word in the context noted above and the document that is most frequently referred to as proof of its accuracy does not, in fact, prove anything of the sort.

Context. When you use agent in that context it is used with the "a person who works for or manages an http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agency." definition, which would require knowing involvement. Using agent in this case is misleading.

Agents of an organization is much different than agent of a specified result.


It's like saying "They fired their arrows" and for some reason thinking it meant they sacked them in a business sense.


Edit:

Proper use of agent in this course of action would be to say "Ulfric was an agent of the Civil War."

Exactly.

I'm torn on this one so I'm going to roleplay both sides. My Redguard figher who is essentially areligious will fight with the Empire because he believes that Ulfric is nothing more than a tool for the Thalmor and his rebellion is too weak to work in Skyrim's favor against the Thalmor threat should it fend off the Empire. Though the Thalmor want the civil war to continue in perpetuity, they would be at the most advantage if Ulfric's Stormcloaks were to win the civil war. And my Redguard hates the condescending Thalmor more than anyone.

The Nord I'll eventually build will fight with the Stormcloaks, mainly to fulfill my personal desire to help them. I am opposed to religious persecution and though the Thalmor have a right to believe that Talos isn't a god/man, I don't believe that they have the right to persecute those who do without proper cause (i.e. they could ban it if they could produce a convincing treatise as to why Talos is not a god, which they have not, and/or they could prove that the worship of Talos presents a tangible threat to citizens in their dominion... and Talos worship is particularly benign and more virtuous than anything... unlike the Forsworn who start participate in human sacrifice, subjection, and mutilation). Knowing that a Stormcloak win doesn't necessarily mean a victory for Skyrim, my Nord will fight with and risk his life with them based on principle and justice. If he dies in the process, certainly the Nine will recognize his self-sacrifice for those who have no voice and his desire to see the end of the direct attacks on the god his people have traditionally believed in (Talos worship is not only restricted to that of Nords, as well... so it is justice for all).

My mistake in miscommunicating what I meant, either way, I think its clear now what my intention was even if my use of the word wasn't exactly spot on.

Guys this is a pointless argument, Bethesda has put more reasons to support the Empire then the stormcloaks!!!!
1. Ulfric was a Thalmor agent, is still considered a asset.
2. The stormcloaks are racist.
3. The stormcloak leadership is a complete joke( Skald, Law-giver, That old guy in whiterun, the loser thane dude in Faelkreath and most of the other jarls) with the exception of Galmer.
4. Ulfric himself is racist. (Refusing to send aid to non human caravans unless there human) (Edit: Its was the jarl before Ulfric who let the dummer in)
5. "Bear Of Markrath" (Don't tell me its biased, so is "Nords arise")
6. After tullius steped into the war, he turned the empires defeat into a stalemate. (Edit: Compare this to ulfric who nearly lost the war when he was captured.
And more...

No, they didn't. You're just seeing everything with empire-colored glasses.

6. He turned the defeat into near victory by capturing Ulfric Stormcloak. The rebellion only continue because of a pesky Dragon.

Hilarious. A++ post. This is like the epitome of the typical ignorant legion posts. You conveyed all the sentiments perfectly.


(This isn't a serious post, right?)

I believe we've achieved a truly Swiftian zone in this discussion, for which I applaud the agents involved and their daring use of the assets at their disposal.

1.) Only in the sense that they think they can use him and his war to further their own goal. History is full of them, and sometimes, they backfrire. With Ulfric, its sure too.

2.) *sigh* Nationalism isn't racism. Your painting the entire movement based on a few racist members. It's handy when trying to sway others to your cause, but its not right in the overall sense. Yes, some Stormcloaks are racist, some Imperials are racist too, but the Stormcloak movement isn't. Its a nationalist movement.

3.) I can agree with you most are indeed weak, but thats the point. Their loyal to Ulfric, their placeholders who will carry out his will. He is the High King afterall, and your jarl's need to know their place. Basic for setting up of an authoritarian kingdom.

4.) Ulfric is basing that off the negative affects of the caravans. Never mind that it was him who authorized the Dunmer shelter in his city, and allowed them to buy as much land as they wanted outside the Hold. The racist argument isn't really a strong holding point, especially because every race is practically racist against another. Its the way of the world.

5.) err..its biesed? like just about ever.book.out there.

6.) So that only shows Tullius is an apt general. Not really making a case for Beth's support of the Empire.

7. Had Alduin not shown up when he did we wouldn't even be having all these threads to begin with...

I support the Stormcloaks, but most people who have picked a side in the Civil War are supporting it for the wrong reasons. In truth, it doesn't really matter. Both sides have an equal chance to defeat the Aldmeri Dominion, but in different methods. That's what is boils down to, which way you prefer of approaching it. It's more of a Mass Effect-style choice:

You don't need a united Empire to defeat the Thalmor. The Great War and anolysis of Thalmor tactics proves that. If the Thalmor were as strong as some people like to imply, they wouldn't take such critical interest in the Civil War in Skyrim, and if they were going for a "Divide and Conquer" strategy they wouldn't oppose a Stormcloak victory.

4. U are forgetting that the stipulation of them there is that they dont pay taxes, u know the money we throw at govt to fix and make stuff, they cannot be pulled into soldiering, meaning that they aint gonna fight for ya, and also that they are under their governing, meaning that they are living there for free and should have elected someone in their circle to take care of things but pretty much everyone fends for themselves. So how exactly is ulfric racist by not throwing money at someone who isnt paying taxes nor will fight for him, people by definitions are not his subjects. The whole reasons for jarls and whatnot is that their someone u support that when times gets tough they fix things for ya or protect ya.
5. That book pretty much is empire propaganda BC the very empire loyal jarl who tasked ulfric with retaking the city back straight defutes a majority of the book, pretty much every part that looks bad on ulfric....weird huh?

Its all true.

If todays opposite day and true means false, then yes, its all true.