Of course it isn't the army of each province. It does, however, draw upon the populations of each province. Skyrim doesn't have a population nearly as large to draw upon. And during the war, the other provinces were virtually emptied of all Legion forces. That's why the Reachmen rebelled. There was no one left in Skyrim to stop them.

It still constitutes a larger army than Skyrim could ever hope to field by itself.



So you think the better option is to side with the guy that's playing right into the Thalmor's hands and giving them one of those political victories in the first place?

Absolutely. It denies the Thalmor intelligence(The one resource they can't do without), and provides an immediate threat they have to deal with. The thalmor are good at planning long term strategies. Immediate issues are quite problematic.

Seeing as Ulfric's already trying to entreat Hammerfell and High Rock, it could be a majorly devastating blow to the thalmor. And the Empire still has its troops on the border of valenwood. Divert troops from valenwood and you'll have the empire sweeping in. It's going to put the thalmor between a rather large rock and a hard place.

Unfortunately all you really will have achieved is a weaker Empire and the further fracturing of the forces that oppose the Dominion. And that will make the next war that much easier for them.

No, giving them exactly what they want is not the solution and siding with Ulfric is doing just that.

Funny I seem to recall their own dossier saying thats exactly what they don't want.

I guess this might not make much sense if you're not a big fan of strategy. But intel is one of the most important things you can have. Currently the thalmor are gathering it all throughout the empire without any opposition whatsoever. Forces help, but knowing how to use those forces effectively and when is MUCH more important.

What they want is a prolonged war because that will ultimately cause the most damage. A Stormcloak victory still divides the Empire and fractures the opposition. Not as good as the first choice, but still better than a united Empire.

And if Ulfric manages to draw High Rock away, that will just cause further damage. Then, even if he does manage to get an alliance between the three provinces, they still face the issues I outlines earlier in this thread.

A united empire they already have under control... They're able to freely cause unrest throughout it and scout forces, weak spots, supply locations, everything.


What issues? I asked you to provide info on this amazingly large source of thalmor troops that everyone has to be united to have any hope of defeating, because every history book in game suggests otherwise.

I wish people would stop with this fallacy that they control the Empire. They WCC gave the Thalmor the rights to enforce certain aspects of it, but they DO NOT CONTROL THE EMPIRE.

The peace is temporary. The Empire and the Dominion WILL go to war again. When that happens, the WCC will go right out the window. What happens next will depend on who wins. If the Empire wins, they'll be the ones setting the terms. If the Dominion wins, the terms will likely be harsher.

So the question at hand is whether or not the Empire will be strong enough to win when that war happens. If you don't think the Empire is using this time to rebuilt it's forces and prepare for that war, you're an idiot. The rebellion in Skyrim is taking away resources from that effort. A Stormcloak victory will do nothing but weaken the Empire and make the likelihood of victory that much less. Skryim will never be able to muster an army the likes of which the Empire could. Nor would an alliance between Hammerfell, Skyrim and High Rock

The Dominion tactic is a classic one: divide and conquer. And Ulfric is helping them.

With a atormcloak victory, means that when they go to war with the empire, It wont be a one on one fight, same with if they went with against skyrim. They go against either, the other is gonna sweep them after the victory defeat, when their at their weakest.that means they would have to divide their main force into 3. One to atk skyrim, one to atk cryodill, and one to watch hammerfell since their an unknown. They lose any of those battles thats a defeat for them, because that means they gonna have to pull from hammerfell and at the end of that battle, u know damn well hamerfell wont pass up the chance to mop them up when their weakened.

If fighting against just the empire then they just send a smaller force to watch hammerfell and then its one on one with an enemy they know all about, how many people they have, how organized and what their supplus are. The whole shebang.

Am independent skyrim case, they only know for a fact of only one kf their enemys entire aituation, knows ones an enemy but not the condition of their army or supplys and ones an unknown if even gonna join.

What fallacy? That was the terms of the surrender. Do what we say or else. We get to send in spies to ensure you're keeping up the deal. While we have them here we might as well check out your supply lines, troop locations, bribe politicians, stir unrest, sabotage resources. You know fun stuff like that.

Yeah it's a good thing that Tullius is in charge of when they go to...oh wait no he isn't. It's all those corrupt politicians at the IC. Wonderful.



The empire's strong enough already. It's just been sitting on its hands due to incompetance. The longer it waits, the stronger and more prepared the dominion gets.

No tje thalmor dosent control the empire, but it is in every level of its govt and intel. The empire has lost the 2 biggest things in combat and thats surprise and speed. The thalmor will ne fighting an enemy to which it knows the soldier count, placement, conditions of tje army, etc. a united empire is gonna have one helluva time fighting against the thalmor since it knows a great big chunk of the empires situation. An independent skyrim scenario adds back the surprise and also divides the forces, meanimg theres a bigger chance of the thalmor losing its surprise and a chance of losing one force right off the bat and placing everyone in rdy position. The thalmor are only gonna go to war for one of two reasons. If its a gaurenteed win or if its about survival. A stormcloak win will put it at survival when their not fully prepared also giving the empire an upperhand as well.

Also u gotta think that the thalmor is in all lvls of govt, theres gonna be mutiny and beyrayal set up to further weaken the empire when it does go to war. The thalmor are intelligent and as currupt as any govt therea gonna be spies and all sort of sabutors.

OP, any rational player would know to join the legion. Though Ulfric has inspiring speeches and a rallying voice, do not be fooled be his forked tounge. He is nothing but an (unknowing) pawn in the dominions intricate chess game. The imperial captain that sent you to the block does not represent all of the empire. You can easily tell that Hadvar was troubled by her decision and would have likely overturned it had he been a higher rank.

Ulfric as well as many of his brethren also have some resentment for elven kind (not counting the dragonborn) and would make for a lousy and unjust ruler. He'd rather keep half the windhelm populous (dark elves) in shambles, rather than diverting some resources from the practically non-existent fighting to at least mend some of the dilapidated buildings and poor living quarters.

And if you stayed around the blue palace you'd know that the previous high king was also conflicted about siding with the elves as he was also a ninth diviner. Had ulfric been serious about the talos worship he would have talked to torygg in a political fashion and wavered succeeding from the imperial/Dominion rule.

He is an overall Snake that needs to be destroyed or turned If the Nords really want to shake off the Aldmeri's hand.

Also, for those suggesting that skyrim succeeding from the empire would add an element of surprise to the advantages it has against the Dominion.... I beg to differ...

1. The Dominion has quite the presence in the province, especially through spies. And from what some are saying they have essentially all the data about the empire, such as troop strength and movement. In addition it is apparently wrapped up in the decisions concerning resources, resource allocation, and political decisions.

2. The Empire makes up both the larger and far more productive half of the province. Winterhold, Windhelm, and Riften are more than enough evidence concerning the stormcloaks minute and far more inferior resources.

3. Ever stop to think about those shifty khajiit caravans? How there's miraculously three that are all in league with one another? And how each caravan has a presence in pretty much all of the major holds? They're strategically positioned just beyond the city walls and have quite a presence in many of the major roads the imperials and stormcloaks use. I mean if they really wanted too they could easily make tally of troop deployment, take note of movement patterns, and report military action... Did I mention that Elsweyr is in cahoots with the elves?

The Dominion already knows too much about the empire and if ulfric was victorious he would inherit all those resources.... Which the Dominion has already kept a "damned" list of... Not to mention the possible merchant spies in their allready deep pockets... So the supposed element of surprise would now be rendered useless beyond that of a bluff.

knows what funny about ulfric diverty resourses to help the elves, if u oust ulfric u find out there is no resourses to give to the elves and in its gotta be restocked. The dunmer are living there on the known fact that they do not pay taxes, the homes were given to them for free and they get to govern and take care of themselves.
torygg would not have wavered against the empire, because it is stated that while ulfric never pulled torygg to the side, ulfric did make it well known in court. He knew where ulfric stood, but even if ulfric talked to him, its still a pretty big knowledge that torygg would still have sided with the empire, bc the only sourse we get that the king looked up to ulfric is the same lady that gives reason after reason onto why torygg would never do it.


and heres the biggest thing, the sole reason why the thalmor is in skyrim doign what their doing is soley the Empire's fault. Trust me, in cryodill the thalmor are kidnapping and torturing thier citizens as well.

The empire isnt evil but they have made a [censored]load of mistakes that are justifily comign to bite them in the ass. Ulfric is not evil because he is looking at whats best for his people. If u blame Ulfric for the deaths of skyrims people, then u have to also lay more blame on the empire for making a legal act into an illegal one that sparked the civil war. If the empire did not step in, there was a chance that Ulfric wouldnt have gotten high King bc there were still jarls that did not agree with him being high king. No bloodshed, no civil war, there was alrdy a way to do things. Empire came in, declared a legal act an illegal one and peopel got pissed and went to arms over it. The empire instead of letting the country decide it leader and ruling and enforcing their laws thru that leader,stepped in and took the peopels rights away from them.
Seriously, the empire atm is [censored] up so bad but got such great propaganda and lord really if they never placed those 2 damn drunks in the game, then racism wouldnt even be a factor on most peoples minds with ulfric.

If they "ousted" ol Ulfo there'd be Too many resources to give, heck they could fix all of winterhold just off of the cinnda Mine! Also, Ulfo leaving the Dunmer "to themselves" isn't kingly at all. No ruler should let their subjects run amuck when they're obviously in a tight spot. Even if he couldn't help improve their living conditions he could atleast offer them some protection. But no, he'd rather protect just the nords and just shun every one else. I mean if I was a dark elf living in that stink hole I'd refuse to support that selfish traitor too and so would you.


Well, challenging the kings rule in front of all his subjects probably won't get you much respect and will probably cut off some of the influence you have on him as well.

And that only source just happens to be his wife, who kinda knew him more than anybody... And ya I'd be concerned about and carefully consider the consequences of biting the thalmors hand. Which gives torygg a perfect excuse if he decided against immediately going with ulfrics rash and honestly too sudden suggestion concerning defection.

those dunmer aren't citizens of skyrim.

But they are people that don't deserve to be bullied or left to the wolves. Ulfric not giving the Dunmer the benefits enjoyed by his subjects in one thing, but allowing the dunmer to be greeted with death threats and not helping non-nords when they are accosted by bandits is entirely unacceptable regardless of where their loyalties lie. I don't care what a century old treaty says, it is the right thing to do and denying these people the same protection by the law is no better than extortion. How can Ulfric defend Tamriel from the Thalmor when he can't even defend a Khajiit caravaneer from the common brigand?

Regardless, that is not how a true king should treat those under his rule. With every day passing, ol Ulfo proves time and time again that he doesn't deserve be high king.

From what I've read the foes of Germany didn't match them in terms of morale and fanaticism (excluding the Soviets) but maybe I've read wrong(with deserters on the western front being a decent threat, soldiers eating ground down soap to get uneven heartbeats to fool the medics, shooting themselves in their feet through bread to make it seem like a war wound to avoid going up against the German defenses and other things). But still, the point is that great morale on it's own won't save you. Like you said yourself the narrow pass was a big factor at Thermopylae, and as others said, equipment and training was too. I'll be one of the first to admit that morale is one of the most important factors, but it can't override weakness' found in other areas.

And I guess the Dominion would do it just like everyone else? The sea is not completely frozen, since we see signs of active naval trade in all of the coastal cities (probably is at times, but then you'll just have to wait until the ice is gone, or possibly use mages to clear a path). And also, as I said, I don't think you'd get a battle similar to Thermopylae in a pass found in Skyrim, since destruction spells might tear any defensive formations of heavy infantry apart. Altmeri mages are among the best in all of Tamriel, and the Nord way of viewing spellcasting as taboo might be pretty costly now that they don't have the support of spellcasters from the different Imperial provinces.

Or provides an opportunity. Invading Skyrim may not be the easiest task, but doing it just after a bloody civil war has worn down the country doesn't sound like the worst idea in the world. Especially not when said civil war has weakened the Empire greatly, so they might not have the strength to deny the Dominion passage through Cyrodiil. And sure, they will have little intel after a Stormcloak victory, but if they act soon enough the intel they have might be current enough to suffice.

My 2 cents on the Racist Stormcloaks.

While the Stormcloaks are indeed racist, that still doesn't prevent some of the Elves from flourishing in WIndhelm.

The Altmer (few as they are) in Windhelm pretty much are set. The White Phial's owner, the owner of the arms shop in the market place, the Altmer couple owning the stables. While they're not rich, they're accepted in WIndhelm because they provided something that helped the people in the city. While it was indeed hard to become accepted and it took time, they proved their worth to the Nords and won some of their respect. And these are HIGH ELVES, the head honchos the Aldmeri Dominion that every non Altmer (and even some Altmer) despise. Heck, the armory shop owner even states she came straight from the Summerset Isles.

I think the reason why the Dunmer are treated the way they are is because the Nords think that they're pretty much leeching off them and hitching a free ride. So the Nords of Windhlem go and treat them accordingly. Even the High Elf in the market says that the Dunmer will stay the way they are because they aren't making themselves useful. That's coming from the most hated ethnic Elf in Skyrim, and even the Stormcloaks accept her more than a lot of the Dunmer judging by her dialogue.

Likewise, regardless of whether or not the Hold is in Imperial territory, the Khajiit caravans are ALWAYS outside of the city, be it Soltitude, Whiterun, or Riften. The racism extends beyond the Stormcloaks in my opinion. I don't think either side is superior to the other in terms of the racial viewpoint. I would prefer the Stormcloaks to win mainly because I think it would make things interesting in the coming future.

WARNING: MAJOR SPECULATIONS AHEAD. I don't think this will happen depending on DLC, but I'm attempting to look at it from both a militarily and politcal point of view. I'm not that well suited for these types of speculations. For all I know I could be overestimating certan factions and underestimate others.


I don't care about the Aldmeri Dominion so much seeing as I roleplay an ex female Thalmor soldier who went awol after being violated by Legion soldiers, but if it came to war, I imagine the Dominion would have to steam over Hammerfell, Cyrodiil. and/or High Rock (including Orisinum, though I'm not sure of their current status quo), and we don't know their diplomatic relations surrounding the government of Black Marsh. Morrowind is still rebuilding and I don't know whether or not what's left of the province is still part of the Empire. (although I don't think they ever officially secceded. My lore surrounding that is a bit sketchy)

Traveling by sea to Skyrim is treacherous and it would require to go through some of the most skilled naval orientated people, the Redguards. Even if they got past the Redguards (who are powerful in of themselves), they would have to contend with ANOTHER naval orientated power, the Nords, who are common sailors and are known to be skilled as sailing as they are skilled as fighting. The Dominion may be able to land in Skyrim, but if Skyrim is independent of the Empire and the Dominon's forces are bogged down by logistics, travel time between the Skyrim, raids by Redguards, Nords, and Pirates, etc/ Environment plays a huge factor into their invasion as well. We all know that Winters have decided the outcomes of wars before, and Skyrim is like The Elder Scrolls version of having General Winter on their side. the Thalmor may find themsleves in a long drawn out war that they thought was going to end quickly and while all this is going on the Empire is sitting smugly watching the Dominion weaken itself fighting two independent provinces with a history of fearsome combat and naval prowess.

The Legion lost a lot of men and women of course, but the Aldmeri Domions forces were crushed in the re-taking of the Imperial City during the Battle of the Red Ring, and their forces were pushed back by Hammerfell alone (though the Elven forces were pretty exhausted by then and Hammerfell suffered HUGE damage as a result to fighting the war by themselves). The Dominion is struggling to rebuild it's forces as well more than likely, but thanks to the WGC, they can keep an eye on the Empire and do what they can to stunt their rebuilding process. This was by a weakened Legion that got svcker punched on the get-go, and were thorougly near collapse by the Sacking of the IC.

So regardless of who wins in my opinion, Stormcloak or Legion, I THINK that the Aldmeri Dominion will have their hands full. A land full of angry Nords and angry Redguards can prove troublesome on the off-chance they decide to unite and attack the Thalmor (unlikely but it does make them sweat a little) while the Empire, still exhausted, can use the Skyrim-Hammerfell Alliance to their advantage by trying to play both sides to weaken one another to such an extent that they would have no choice but to let the Legion come in their territory to restore order.

And thanks to a certain guild questline that involves the leaders of the Empire on a personal level, we can only wait and see what the future holds for the Mede Empire.

That was my 2 cents, I went for Stormcloaks because I thought they were more interesting on a personal level (lore-aside from a gameplay perspective.) but wearing that Roman Armor sure felt good, and I felt like I was part of Caesar's Legion all over again from NV.

I agree this is a difficult one.

However, in response to the people saying that siding with the Empire will give us a better chance of survuval against the AD. Well there is no invasion (so far in this game), and like other TES the cannon will be written regardless of our efforts.

If theoretically speaking it did happen, who said Skyrim would not help the Empire? We only ask that the milksops bend the knee (gasp! and dirty their togas) and grovel for it first. Why should we be the Imperial forces and not Allied Forces? Skyrim has rights to its independence, the way I see it the Empire died with Martin anyway.

Something I like to draw out when people say the Thalmor controls the Empire is that 1: they couldn't prevent the Empire from capturing Ulfric Stormcloak and 2: the dossier on Ulfric specificly mentions their position in Skyrim will be weakened in Skyrim if the Empire wins. 2 small details that makes me question just how much control or influence they really have.

They might help the Empire, but both sides would have less men. Not to mention possible hostilities and being divided in terms of tactics and strategy. Stormcloaks usually see the Empire as cowardly, so it's quite possible that the Stormcloaks might charge in when the Empire calls for a more tempered reaction, either leading to better odds for the Dominion, facing small forces one at a time rather than a big united one, or forcing the Imperials to assist the Stormcloaks when the odds go against them. Sure, it could be beneficial if the Stormcloaks manage to spur the Imperials on when it matters the most, but Imperial "cowardice" might be the reason it's still around. And I won't argue with Skyrim having the right to independence. Only problem I have with it all is that the Thalmor want to undo the world, had it not been their goal I wouldn't have cared much for the outcome of any potential wars.

they have no actual control over the empire, but they are smart enough to give a more than ample helping hand in their direction, they are just too cunning.

I have a question about the dunmer. Since they dont pay taxes, cant corce them into fighting for ya, why should a king or leader go above and beyound the conditions that were given to them?

Literally the dunmer aint stupid. The know that gift that was given to them was a blessing and a curse. It was a blessing that they dont pay taxes, give lip to current jarl, or have to fight in any wars. The curse is its locked them out of receiving help like an average cotizen. Its great and excellent when its good, bit extremely bad when its the low.

Im saying the dunmer aint stupid because most of them has wisen up to the setup and knlw if tney are gonna receive help then they have to act outside the cclmfort zone. Means contributing to the city and working thru the nordic way to get respext. They know that they have been handed all their getting on a silver plate, and if they want more thsn they have to work outside the free priviliges the pact gave them. Why do u think most of the elves in windhelm dislike those 2 that are complaknimg? Because the others know if their gonna get help, they cant ask for a freebie and change the perception of the dunmer wanting things for free instead changing it to the dunmer worked and earned. Those 2 are pretty much deadbeats thats holding back the opular opionion about dunmer of hardworkers and trying to contribute to dunmers expecting things for free.

The reason they are even there in windhelm is a blessing and a curse, and heres the kicker. Really all they had yp do was pay taxes and help fill the coffers of money to be spent on them instead of contributing nothing at all.



If u jave someone living on ir house, are you gonna bendover backwards and help and throw money at someone who lives with and dosent pay rent or help out with the bills that aint a friend or family member, just someone the previous tenet let stay there for free as long as tney wanted?

They don't have enough control yet. Also Legion != Empire. Why do you think they're using stalling tactics? It's pretty obvious they don't have the forces necessary for an open conflict. It's a dangerously stupid game the empire's playing. They've been ready to go for some time now and the higher ups just aren't giving the order.