thats what i was trying to make with that statement. Even if u make a "right" choice dosent mean there wont be "bad' consequences.

A Nord, Dunmer and Imperial alliance would be a formidable opposition to the Dominion. Let the Redguards be butthurt over a decision that didn't go their way, and let the Argonians just... do their wierd thing in Black Marsh. I think Morrowind has started to recover from the devastation it suffered aswell.

no ones disputing that allience wouldnt be formible, its more along the lines of did the empire itself shot itself in the foot unintentially deny that allience. And also if the way the empire handled the situation with skyrim to the best of its abilitys and persuade all options or did they just retaliate in the fashion that ur mine and im not letting you go for whatever reason.
Or if an independent skyrim allied with the empire better than skyrim being dominated and disgruntled into staying with the empire.

He was standing right there. How is that not close enough to intervene? You think the general was just day dreaming or something?

Leonidas I might take issue with you on that . . . ever hear of a place called Thermopylae?

The Empire stinks of communism along with the fascism and tyranny that it brings. Why should you accept being told who to worship by Imperialist animals who whimper and hide away when the Thalmor speak? One true Nord is worth a thousand Imperials and no Nord will ever be told what to do, who to worship and when. No true Nord will ever bow to the whim of the Empire and will fight for freedom to the last man.

Good argument. Why would you fight for someone who was quite willing to part you from your head just because you happened to be in the right place at the wrong time? You weren't on their list but they were going to do it anyway, that just shows the kind of system you would be supporting. How many other innocent people have they sent to the block?

If they feared Ulfric using shouts, watch them run and hide when the Dovakin uses them.

Ulfric's whole deal is to fight the thalmor on his own terms.

The empire keeps fighting the thalmor on the thalmor's terms, and it isn't working.

Playing the long game with the thalmor is always a losing battle.

He was standing by the stocks when captives were lined up and checked on the list iirc. He was close enough when the player bares his/her neck for the headsman, yes, but not when the decision was made.

Ever heard of WW2? German troops were among the best in terms of training, had high morale and many were fanatical even about their cause. Did that save them when they were running low on manpower, while facing several larger foes? You can't send men that don't exist to reinforce a weak spot in your own line, nor to exploit a weakness in the opponents ranks. And you bring up a battle when we are talking about war. You can find accounts of very few fallschirmj?gern holding out against much larger numbers of allies during the push into Germany too, but as said, looking at the war overall it didn't change much. And also, what you bring up wasn't solely about morale. I'll admit I don't have much verified info on that battle in particular, but the compositions of the armies involved, the battleground itself etc played a big role too. And besides, had it been an ES battle instead the tables might have been turned pretty quickly. Imagine if the Persians had mages hurling fireballs and lightning bolts at the Greek phalangites.

You'll have to point out the piece of info that the Thalmor have some overwhelming huge force and don't http://www.imperial-library.info/content/rising-threat and use subterfuge and careful planning to strike instead.

Tullius was close enough. I heard him talking as I got off the cart. If he was lollygaggin or daydreamin, that's no excuse for not paying attention to what's going on when you are about to execute the leader of the opposition. The argument that he was "too far away" is silly. The Germans lost to the Russian winter as much as anything else, plus the allied forces fought with at least as much passion as the axis powers. The Empire has no one to inspire passion in the troops. Anyway, a Thalmor invasion of Skyrim would be nothing like WWII, where the Germans were fighting multiple enemies on every side. Skyrim is surrounded by mountains on three sides and a frozen sea, with mostly cliffs on the north. How are the Thalmor going to get their troops there and run supply lines and such? they certainly cannot teleport in. Magic like that has not been seen in hundreds of years.

i can only play stormcloaks on chars that do not to the mainquest.

if i do the mq and i try to go with the stormcloaks.... well lets say the whiterun jarl makes me delete my char.

Might I remind you that the Greeks lost at the battle of Thermopylae? And that the Persians when on to sack and burn Athens? It was the Athenian navy that decided that war.

I don't think the Greeks at Thermopylae really expected to "win" that battle, i.e., drive the Persians back and put a stop to the invasion. What they hoped to do was delay it by holding up both the Persian army and cavalry (the Spartans and their allies on land) and the Persian navy (the Athenian fleet) by defending a natural bottleneck for as long as possible. They held out until (according to legend) the men holding the pass were outflanked by the Persians' discovery of a shepherd's trail through the mountains that guarded the Greeks on one side.

In the meantime Athens was successfully evacuated, aside from a few stubborn holdouts on the Acropolis, and when Xerxes got there to destroy it he could only exact his vengeance on the buildings and not on the population itself.

But yes, I agree that the Battle of Salamis is often overlooked because of the history and legends of the famed 300. Which is a shame, because it's a riveting story in its own right.

Only because the Greeks were betrayed by one of their own.


Nevertheless, the Battle of Thermopylae is often cited as an example of free people outfighting slaves. For example:

"So almost immediately, contemporary Greeks saw Thermopylae as a critical moral and culture lesson. In universal terms, a small, free people had willingly outfought huge numbers of imperial subjects who advanced under the lash. More specifically, the Western idea that soldiers themselves decide where, how, and against whom they will fight was contrasted against the Eastern notion of despotism and monarchy — freedom proving the stronger idea as the more courageous fighting of the Greeks at Thermopylae, and their later victories at Salamis and Plataea attested."

Victor Hanson article". Victor Hanson article. 2006-10-11. http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson101106.html. Retrieved 2009-03-27.

Although the Imperial soldiers in Skyrim may not be slaves, they don't seem to have the passion for the cause that Ulfric is capable of inspiring. None of the Imperial leaders in Skyrim are very inspiring and I don't see the Imperials being able to rally the troops the way Ulfric does.

A loss is a loss. They may have had superior morale, better armor and better training, but the only thing that allowed them to hold out so long was that they controlled a narrow pass. That pass negating the Persian army's superior numbers. The moment the Persians were able to open a second front, those 300 Spartans and some 7000 other Greeks were slaughtered. The superior morale, heavier armor and better training counted for naught.

As I recall, they never expected to win that battle, anyways. The Battle of Thermopylae was never anything more than a holding action to buy the other Greeks more time.

Without the superior morale, I doubt they would have lasted more than 20 minutes in that pass. It took both superior morale and a narrow pass to do what they did. And let's not forget, Skyrim is full of narrow passes.

No. Their superior morale gave them the courage to face the greater numbers. Their heavier armor helped them stand up against the attacks. Their better training allowed them to move with unison and improved their effectiveness. All that, however, hinged on the critical element of the pass and that it effectively eliminated the advantage of the Persian's superior numbers.

As for Skyrim, yes, it has a lot of passes and I have no doubt they'd use that to their best advantage. They might also have the better morale. However, the Nords would not be bringing superior armor or training to the battle. In addition to that, with their distain for magic, there's no way they'll be capable of countering the Dominion's magical forces. And those magical forces would wreck havoc on a Thermopylae style defense.

As part of the Empire, the Bretons of High Rock would be present to counter the Dominion Mages.

It took both superior morale and a narrow pass. Take away either one of those and they would not have held out for three days. If they lacked morale they would not have been able to stand and fight the way they did.


There is also the Dovakin and the Thu'um to counter Thalmor mages. Plus there are standing stones that give magic resistance and plenty of magic resistance gear to be found in Skyrim.

Neither of which are present in the numbers necessary to effectively do so. And that's assuming the Dovakhin will even be present at such a battle.

For a while I couldn't get off the side off the Stormcloaks because the other guys tried to behead me but after a few toons I decided to start making them ignore that first part of the game and just find my own starting position and background story. So unless you are only going to play the game one time it really doesnt matter.

You still seem to be under the impression that the thalmor have this insurmountable force just waiting to pounce. A lot of the bosmer populace is dead(The thalmor supporters were a minority among them hence the pogroms and mass purges), and while Elsweyr has allied with the thalmor as a client kingdom, they don't particularly seem to care about fighting the war.

Keep in mind when the Thalmor attacked cyrodiil, the imperial legion was at the lowest its ever been and was also completely unprepared.

They STILL lost. Not only that, but the entire attack force was completely wiped out to the last man. Their second attack force was eventually driven from hammerfell without intervention from the empire. Real Barenziah notes that elves have terrible conception rates(2 children being uncommon, 4 the most they've ever seen), whereas men do not have this problem. Hence they fell back to their appear threatening and use subterfuge until we can get ready again approach.

Very good points. Two reasons that make it hard to support the empire.1,They try to kill you.IRL, if I was abducted by my gov, and barely escaped execution or worse,Id find it hard to support it.2. They are giving the enemy(the thalmor), a people that,as we have seen, thrive on subterfuge/covert actions full access to their lands.Its no wonder there are insurections/kidknapings,ect going on in skyrim.By helping the empire, Im spreading their influence accross skyrim(there are no thalmor walking around in SC zones as far as I know).

But there are plenty of reasons to support the empire as well.Ive had the game sence the day it came out,and tried both sides,and,in my main file, have still not made a decision on who to support.

That was against the combined forces of Cyrodill, Skyrim, Morrowind, Hammerfell and High Rock. A vastly superior force than what Skyrim alone could ever hope to field.

And while the Dominion might have lost the military campaign, their political victories have been devastating to the Empire.

heres also another thing id like to add. If skyrim goes independent it wont suffer the full wrath of the thalmor because of two reasons. The empire and hammerfell. If they send a full assult against skyrim then they have to worry about the empire coming at their flanks and hammerfell is an unknown. So even with an independent skyrim it actually helps both sides because neither will have a full assault but split forces.

Not quite. The legion is not each nation's army.(Otherwise Hammerfell would've been SOL after WGC) The legion is a voluntary force and the Empire hadn't been recruiting to it for a long time when the war began.



So tell me why I should support an Empire that keeps falling for that same trick over and over again? Heck they've probably bought a bunch of the elder council members by now.