@redneckdevil

What I'm saying is that Ulfric is a weak ruler and poor leader. If the Dunmer are living under his roof he should take control and either kick them out or at least cut them and the argonians a fair deal. I mean what kingly figure lets foreigners live in his peoples city scot free? It's not like the Dunmer are living outside the city walls in a little village. But They're living directly within the walls of the city! All I'm saying is that Ulfric needs to step up and be a king, take the reins and drive his hold while being fair and just. Rather than standing idly by and letting dragons and god knows what attack and slaughter his people.

It's like your father inviting a friend over to live with you. And then one day pops kicks the bucket and leaves all that he owns to you. Well you'd probably step up and set some ground rules or kick him out if he was perfectly capable of working.

Anyways, back on topic Ulfric winning only further staggers the odds in the Thalmors favor.

If Ulfric wants to keep a legitimate claim, he'll keep the terms of the decree as set out by the past high king. Maybe he'll change it or nullify it when he actually has the authority to do so, but Ulfric's trying his best to stay within nordic tradition. He's already set out the terms for them in the meantime. "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours". Which is far better than the imperials have ever done. "You scratch my back and I'll leave you to die when you need me most"

As for your last comment, more unsubstantiated claims are great for discussion. I don't see how one force unwilling to ever start fighting(Again people, realize that the legion is NOT the empire) > several subsects that are willing to fight.
But since we're making claims based on nothing, the odds never mattered because the reapers invade in TES VI.

Supporting the Empire is simply helping the Dominion. From a mythical, hero rising perspective keeping the Empire united is just as good as dooming them to destruction. Assuming you look at this from a lore standpoint, mankind does best when divided and on the ropes. Support the corrupt and defunct shell of the old Tamrelic Empire is walking the path doom.

Yes, but Ulfric winning would actually be more of an advantage to the Dominion than the empire nullifying it. (This is backed up by a certain dossier.) All the thalmor are doing is further fracturing the empire making their little game allot easier to win.

All the dosier does is suggest they have need for him to win, and that they think they can take advantage of him being in power. All that backs is their over confidence. Breaking up the Empire is the worst thing they can possibly do, as Lorkhan has a habit of showing up when humanity is at its weakest. So, I must humbly disagree good sir. Everyone is so convinced the Thalmor's plan is brilliant, and that Ulfric is a foolish pawn in the great game, but most fail to see how the Thalmor are mythically undoing themselves.

IIRC the dossier

Sorry, no. The dossier says exactly the opposite. Try reading the last line again, very carefully this time.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

While you could argue that a Stormcloak victory is somehow to their advantage based on your own opinions or the known history of Tamriel or other in-game information, the dossier does not indicate anything of the sort. It indicates that

Fine. Even if they don't pay taxes. The least he could do is take Balgruffs example and stop at nothing to help protect his holds people. It's not like the majority of the revenue goes towards windhelms upkeep or any other stormcloak city. Nearly all of it fuels the war and troops. The least he could do is investigate these reported local attacks on refugees rather than ignoring them. You can't honestly say that a "scratch my back" mentality is a characteristic of a good jarl.


....... yeah, your right. What was I thinking? Known fact and basic logic are completely unsubstantial. Please, forgive my apparent ignorance. I mean divide and conquer is a horrible idea! And only imbeciles like the thalmor would employ such a useless tactic.

Sure the khajiit caravan theory may have been a bit far fetched but everything else stands perfectly. Please, don't delude your self into thinking that from a divided empire will come a brand new USA. This isn't anything close to the American-British war.

In my current game, I sided with the Stormcloaks, thus assuring their victory. However, speaking with various Stormcloak leaders, they all seem to think the war against the Empire is still ongoing and urgent. I don't know if this is an oversight, or intentional. What conditions, if any, must be met in order for the Stormcloaks to consider the war over and done?

Further, since wiping out their fortress, I haven't seen a single Thalmor in the game, unless I return to the embassy. Did my actions drive them further into the background, are they reassessing their position, moving to a new overall strategy regarding Skyrim, or what?

It's an intriguing situation, whether intended or not.

I'm sorry, what? Thalmor seem to be doing pretty well for themselves from what I can see.

I'm pretty sure it's the same if you do the other side. And both Ulfric and Tullius tell you at the end of the CW battles that the enemy is still present and active and will continue on with their efforts to undermine the present victory.



The ones at the Thalmor Embassy can't leave because

Yeah, that's the issue I have. It is disappointing that Bethesda gave us an opening scene that painted one side in such a bad light that if you want to join the other side, you have to basically ignore the first part of the game.

The rest of the stormcloak versus empire debate just reminds me of the old debate about whether superman or the green lantern would win in a fight.

Your not well acquainted with Tamrelic history and its mythic aspect then. Alessia, Tiber, Remen, Peliniel, all came about when humanity was threatened or in need the most, all aided in some way by Lorkhan or were avatars or him. The Thalmor are certainly doing well, but thats only on the outside. By dividing and destroying the Empire and questing to destroy man they are providing the prerequisites for Lorkhan's return to aid humanity. TES has alot more to do with what goes on behind the scenes and what you can't see than it does with what you can.

Tbh both sides have an equal chance at beating the thalmor. Either side will have situations in both favors when finally confronting the thalmor. Albeit I do see it with an independence victory, the thalmor being more iffy kn doing it or being forced into a war they not rdy for on multiple sides.

At the moment yes. Divide and conquer is a terrible idea because the thalmor do not have the resources to pull it off. If they divide the empire, they have an openly hostile(possibly more if the alliances work out) force already wanting to come at them. After they're weary from that attack(If they can survive it) they still have the empire right on their borders who will have no doubt taken advantage of this..

What they want in skyrim is to keep this war going in an indecisive fashion. It wastes legion troops, stormcloak troops, and damages the nation's infrastructure. It took them 160 years to recover from the last major upset to their forces. Right now they're doing damage control to ensure they don't get curbstomped.

I don't know how many times people need to hear this, but read The Rising Threat and The Great War. You'll get a rather good idea on thalmor tactics and SOP.

This is why I joined the Stormcloaks:

1. The white-gold concordat (I forgot what it was called) banns the worship of Talos, and freedom of faith is a human right that shouldn't be forgotten. Sure, the Nords are not the only one worshiping him, but I do believe they are the biggest victims. I know the empire didn't want to ban it, but they did, and by doing so they betrayed themselves (I know they would get defeated otherwise, but still). The Stormcloaks on the other hand fights for their right to believe what they want, and that's the side I want to stand on.

2. Ulfric is right, Skyrim does belong to the Nords. I mean, think about it: the races of TES are not only treated as a race, but as citizens of a nation. Cyrodil is owned by the imperials, Morrowind belongs to the Dark Elves, and Skyrim belong to the Nords. It's basically the equivalent of saying "France belong to french" or "Greece belong to the Greek" (I'm talking about all people living in the country). This is basically the mentality of pretty all nationalists that wanted to be independent, for example when Greece broke loose from the Osman Empire in the 19th century.

The Nords have a long history in Skyrim, and I agree, it is their land, and although most of the people of other races that live in Skyrim acts like they want to move / not live in Skyrim permanently, I think it's their land as well. Nords have by all means the right to rule themselves, and shouldn't be forced to live under the conditions of e.g. The Aldmeri Dominion.

3. They are not THAT racists as they are portrayed to be. Take Ulfric for example, he is supposed to hate every other race but Nords, and yet, he INVITED the dark elves to live in his city when they needed help. Sure, they had to live in "the slum", but still, doesn't sound like a true racist to me.

It's obvious that a bunch of nationalists are going to be hostile against strangers in their land, but I think that their hate (their one weakness) is said to be worse than it really is.

4. I find the empire to be very hierarchic. Every time I pass by a legion soldier, he says something in style with "walk along, peasant", implying that I'm of a lower class than him, and uses it as a way to show his authority. When I'm in Solitude (The legion base), I find it hard to miss the difference between the poor beggars and the high-ranked rich people that spends time with the jarl and lives in mansions (or at least very huge houses). The blue palace feels much more classy than e.g. Palace of the Kings in Windhelm, which feels like a place that doesn't try to stand too high above the average person. In other words: The Stormcloaks feels like the more equal side and feels like the a side that fights for the people IMO.


That's just my opinion though

Lore and all that blah blah blah aside I can't stand the Stormcloak Jarls that take over. They all treat my character like crap making snide comments and showing no respect at all. I did that on my first playthrough. All my subsequent playthroughs have been for the Empire.

my two penneth on this subject.
imperials tried to kill me so im now going to kill every imperial i can find.they may be decent people but they were gonna off me just because i was on a list!

and that thalmor bunch (they are the snotty elven types,am i correct?) ,well they are just crying out for a kicking. im not going to be pushed around and told who to worship by a bunch of hairdressers! ive not found one of 'em yet who can retain his lofty,enegmatic far away mystic demeanour with my axe buried between his eyes.

i dont much care if the stormcloaks win or not,but if they can get me within bladesreach of the thalmor and their imperial lapdogs then im their man! (for now)

anyway,thats how im roleplaying my first stab at the game! cheers

That's interesting, when I go into city that now has a new SC-aligned Jarl because of my efforts, I'm immediately granted permission to buy property and/or apply for a Thaneship before I even have a chance to say anything. Kinda surprising as I thought I would have to do at least one favor quest for each Jarl, apparently winning the war for their side is sufficient.

Is that right after they say "Your not as stupid as you look"? I never got past that.

Yeah, I hope we get to smash the Thalmor in the next game! or better yet maybe some DLC?

I dislike the Empire, and I dislike the Stormcloaks, I dislike the Thalmor. So I looked at what would be the most humane of governments, which I felt was the Empire, as the Thalmor are purveyors of 'Nineteen Eighty-Four' style dystopia, and I doubt the freedom to be felt under Ulfric.

this...

i have always played as dunmer, and my dunmer have always supported the empire and fought for them.

the empire is doing what they're doing now, because they are simply waiting for the right moment to strike down the dominion when the time is right... if they had not agreed to the terms, they would've been wiped out, and skyrim would've been overrun with no protection, they'd have to deal with the dragons AND the dominion... alone.

Yeah, first time I heard that, I said, "What!? You idiot, I'm every BIT as stupid as I look! But at least I can move around the world, you're stuck in a friggin' chair all day on your butt with morons licking your toes. Feh!" Then I felt better.

That easily debatable. Remember, the Ra'ga of Hammerfell managed to fight off the Dominion long after the Empire opted out of the war. Which means, the Redguards took on the Dominion alone and managed to win. I don't think the argument that they would have been whiped out holds water, not when they had the might and resources of the Empire at their disposal. If we look at it just from a mundane perspective, there's no reason to believe they would have been wiped out.

I only chose the Empire, because the Stormcloaks are all a bunch of dumb rednecks.