Maybe if I was roleplaying a shaolin monk out of an old 70s TV show I could see it that way. Being able to empathize with people who tie you up and try to put you down like a dog would be a hard thing for most people to do. I remember being somewhat horrified at the opening scene at Helgen because after playing Oblivion and Morrowind, I could not believe the Empire was acting that way, and in a very short period of time, my emotional feelings toward the Empire changed. It happened when they shot that thief in the back.

Lots of folks in this forum try to use logical arguments to pursuade folks to side with the Imperials. But I had an emotional reaction to the opening scene at Helgen, so I roleplay with that. For the longest time I ignored both sides of the civil war, trying to feel better about the Empire and I wandered the land and did other quests, but the first time I entered Solitude and saw the scripted event there, the same feelings toward the Empire that were formed in Helgen came right back.

Logic does not win hearts, so no amount of logical argument is going to change the way I feel about the Empire.

On the other hand, Ulfric's "I fight" speech goes right for people's hearts. If I try to sit back and think about it rationally, rather than roleplay one of my characters, I still come to the conclusion that Ulfric has a better chance of defeating the Thalmor because he knows how to fill soldiers with passion for the cause.

There may be some logical arguments for supporting the Empire, but the Col. Tigh voiced Tullius is not going to inspire passion for a cause, and in my travels, I have not seen any Imperial soldier who does, at least not the way Ulfric Stormcloak does. You can have all the logic in the world behind you, but if your soldiers don't have the kind of passion behind them that Ulfric Stormcloak can inspire they are probably not going to win.

The Empire just seems like a hollow shell run by tired overworked bureaucrats and they have done nothing to inspire me to support them.

I RP different toons in different ways.

My primary character is a Breton thief with a great dislike for anything that smells like responsibility and a great like for fun. In his mind staying neutral and messing with both sides is fun. This is the most complex character to play because neutral is just more difficult to manage.

I have an imperial who is a loyal trooper - not doubt where his sympathies lie.

I have a High Elf mage with a lust for power. Again, no question where he goes.

I have yet to make a Nord character but I will.

Now imagine all of that, only for someone who never played a TES game before and so has no lingering nostalgic love or admiration for the Empire as it once was, who was never aligned with it, never had to save it from destruction, and didn't even know it existed before she woke up on that cart. I played the Legion once, and once only, just to see how it went. But I didn't enjoy any of it and hated a lot of it.

Also: my completely subjective opinion is that Ulfric and Galmar are fun and entertaining to be around. Right, wrong, or indifferent, at least they are not boring. And when you help them, they are so warm and appreciative! I can't say the same for their Legion counterparts. That was just a big old yawn-filled episode of Cog, Meet Machine as far as I was concerned.

Also: I've seen Ulfric nekkid. I've only seen Tullius' sad little legs sticking out from under his skirt, but that was enough. I'm a woman and I HAVE NEEDS PEOPLE.

Goes without saying: in the Battle of the Voice Actors, Ulfric wins hands down IMO.

I believe it indeed does... but AFAIK the Nerevarine got killed in Akavir.

Imperial and crush those rebels under your boots

yea i know in the db when you meet that redguard and ask about him he says something like " im a redguard but not like you, i come from hammerfell"

I always got the opinion that Ulfric is playing right into the Thalmor's hands. A bloody civil war is going to leave Skyrim weakened. Although the campaign doesn't convey it well, Tulius and Ulfric were pretty evenly matched. It would be foolish to think that Ulfric could win without suffering massive casualties. As such, Skyrim will be temporarily weakened while they lick their wounds. Easy pickings for a Thalmor force that has been rebuilding for a long time.

And it's not like the Empire would have the manpower or will to help out Ulfric should the Thalmor invade. The Thalmor have been waiting for the Empire to blink, and Ulfric probably helped them more than they could have ever hoped for. A bloody civil war that actually leads in a divided border to the Thalmor's east? Perfect.

The captain was still the one calling the shot. It was her decision. And Tullius seemed determined to get rid of the leader of a rebellion and his current enemy, not bloodthirsty. And the "the Empire is going to put you down" was directed at the rebels fighting the Empire. And I didn't bring up that argument. I don't care which side you support. But since you brought it up, why would weakened and isolated provinces like Skyrim (being war-torn and all) fare better on their own against the Dominion than they all did united?

A general is always responsible for the actions of the officers under his command and he was standing right there within earshot of what was going on. He had every opportunity to intervene, but he didn't. Tullius is no innocent.


Sure sounded bloodthirsty to me. Either that or drunk. Hearing Tullius voice I cannot help but picture him as an arrogant drunken bastard hypocrite thanks to Michael Hogan's excellent work in the remake of Battle Star Galactica.


See my post #51 above for why I think Ulfric is more likely to prevail against the Thalmor than the Imperials. Granted, it would be best for all concerned if Ulfric and the Empire mended fences, but the Empire is at fault for that. First, they sign a treaty they know will be unacceptable to the Nords. Then they illegally try to arrest Ulfric, then they illegally stop the moot, then when they catch Ulfric, they decide to just "put him down" without any sort of trial and without considering whether there might be other options.

Hammerfell didn't secede from the Empire. When the White Gold Concordant called for ceding territory to the Dominion, the people of Hammerfell refused to accept and kept fighting. That, of course, was a violation of the treaty. Since the Empire was unable to stop the fighting in Hammerfell and didn't want to risk another total war with the Dominion so soon, they did the only thing they could. The Empire let Hammerfell go. That's where the resentment comes from. The Empire abandoned Hammerfell to the mercies of the Dominion. That they managed to drive the Dominion out of Hammerfell didn't do anything to abate that anger and resentment.

Think of it this way. The only reason they even captured and were going to kill the Dragonborn is because they were found near the Stormcloaks.

I don't know about that. I'm still confused about the whole whens and wheres of that capture. There's reference to the ambush of Ulfric and his men happening at or near Darkwater Crossing. There's reference to me being picked up crossing the border. If we're talking the Skyrim/Cyrodiil border, which seems likely, that's nowhere near Darkwater. If we're assuming that I was picked up in the same ambush that nabbed Ulfric at Darkwater, then I wasn't crossing any border that would matter to people whose primary concern is the war in Skyrim. The only "border" I can see that's anywhere near Darkwater is the border between the Rift and Eastmarch and they are both Stormcloak territory, it wouldn't be like catching someone crossing from "our" side to "theirs" or vice versa.

And if Ulfric was picked up at Darkwater, and I was picked up on the Skryim/Cyrodiil border, then it didn't happen "on the way" to Helgen. Unless we assume that Ulfric was picked up and being taken back to Cyrodiil, and then Tullius decided to execute him in the nearest appropriate Imperial-held settlement, so they got to the border but then turned around and just happened to pick me up in the process.

Either way I highly doubt the Empire was just rounding people up that were full on innocent, or should be believed to be full on innocent.

I think alot of people are not realizing the full potential of skyrims nords in battle. Skyrim has proven on many occasions to surprise the world in what they can do. Their battlelust strikes fear into the hearts of their enemys.
Also id like to point out that skyrim took on and defeated two seperate countrys atks during the the emporer was being impersonated.
Also who else in lore has a repeated history of confronting the elves even on their turf with a small army or a small grp of people and wrecking havic, beating, or given such a battle that the elves were in fear of them......that would be nords.

Also I believe my sig says it best, better than anything else I can state.

The redguard have good reason to oppose the empire, given what happened to Hammerfell. Some sources you'll want to read are http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War and http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Skyrim%27s_Rule which was written by a redguard. Also http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Flight_from_the_Thalmor, written by a Nord but with a preface note from a redguard scribe.

How does that solve this problem when Hammerfell is no longer an imperial province?

The empire will be getting weaker no matter what. If Skyrim left the empire, the empire is screwed. This is because valenwood joined the Summerset isles, Black marsh left, Morrowind got screwed, Elseweyr left and now Hammerfell. If Skyrim leaves as well, just high rock and cyrodiil alone will not be able to defend against those dumb elves.
If you are a logical person who wants to fight back the elves, it is obvious that you should go imperial side. Because what will happen if the stormcloaks win? Skyrim cannot fight against the thalmor alone, and given that the imperials were defeated, the empire is now the enemy of skyrim, which leads to two big enemies with big provinces fighting a small skyrim. It is a lose situation for Ulfric and his 'stormcloaks'.

As I said, Tullius wasn't close enough to intervene. And yes, he's responsible, that doesn't mean that he or any other Imperial officer would have made the same decision as the captain.

Part of the reason the Dominion asked for such terms was because they knew it would lead to in-fighting. That's why Ulfric is considered an asset by the Thalmor. He starts a bloody war which wears down and potentially cripples Skyrim, and weakens the Empire. All the easier for the Thalmor to sweep in for the killing blow when they feel like it. And morale is important, I will give you that. However, I'm not sure why people would have been unwilling to fight in the Great War. The Emperor and the Imperials were certainly motivated to get rid of the Dominion, since it was their cities they were besieged, their civilian populations suffering from Aldmeri atrocities. Good morale makes a warrior much greater, but it can only go so far. If you simply lack resources, like manpower, it doesn't make that much of a difference.

Nords are good fighters. No doubt about it. But Nords were in the Great War too. And then they had the backing of battlemages and other powerful allies. Incompetent leadership aside (reading the book linked on this page about the Great War makes it seem as if the Imperial leaders were not incompetent imo) I don't see why the Nords would do a better job on their own against a united Dominion.

Agreed, I can't stand Imperials ever sinced I played Morrowind (and why I am so biased towards playing Dunmers which make 80% of all my characters). Now I hate Altmers too.

Also Stormcloaks are not racist. Nords generally are. Stormcloaks just won't take crap, and even if you are a Dunmer, Altmer or Imperial who they are supposed to hate, they will take you in.


Yes, Dunmers, and Dunmers kicked their asses, and not any kind of Nords, they kicked asses of Nords at the time where shouting was heavily sported in battle. So if they couldn't dl well against a single race of mer, I'm not too sure how would they do against Altmers. I do hate Altmers but they are just way too big in numbers, + you can bet they would have a lot of allies as well.

I've started moving into playing Imperial based characters. Mostly because I like the racials they get in Skyrim, and I generally like the way they look.

The more I read about the Great War, the more I feel the Empire did the best they could at the time. The Dominion basically strong armed the Emperor into that ridiculous treaty, and I can't fault Mede for accepting it. Look at what he has left, a tattered not even full strength Legion that had just ended the Domion's force in Cyrodiil. He has nothing really to help Hammerfall with, and barely (what seems to be) a full strength legion in Skyrim. Thinking from a ruler's point of view, I'd have taken the exact same deal. He already knew that the Khajit left the Empire, and knew that Morrowind is a wasteland now. What could he have sent to Hammerfall, in all honesty, to fight the Dominion there and in Cyrodiil at the same time?

For Ulfric to try and seize power is ridiculous. His reasoning is also beyond ridiculous. The guy is a murderer for one thing, a certain traitor, and should be rightly put to death. Even when I fired the game up for the first time, I could totally see why my character was in the back of that wagon, and I was not faulting the Empire anything. I'd have done the same thing in Tullius's shoes.

Personally, from a guy that used to play nothing but Dunmer, I favor the Empire. Even the people of Skyrim don't much care who wins or loses, just as long as the war is ended and they can deal with the Dominion.

The Emperor made the best of a situation that had him in a clear disadvantage. The Dominion still had a much larger force still within Dominion lands, they just would have taken awhile to get to the front had the war kept going. If there is another war that starts up, I bet we'd see the Dominion taking out one province at a time instead of trying to do multiple fronts at one time.

Well the people of skyrim have been bred to accept whoever is ruler over them.

The thing is yes the empire did a good job, I wont say best. The whole thing is that at the end of the war the empire pretty much agteed to abandoning one of its Allys hammerfell, abandon its citizens to the mercy of the thalmor the ban on talos worshipping, and they brought in the thalmor in all levels of its government.
Its boils down to if u think the empire should be held responsible for its decision at the end of the war.
Ulfric is not a murderer, he followed the skyrim traditions in the duel.
The empire is at fault for stepping in and outlawing a situation when the situation is allowed by skyrims laws.
Which is better? To go in and put down a civil war with half the country against you or stepping back and letting the country secede and establishing ties witha country that canbe an ally that is not affected by the treaty?
The empire coulda used skyrim as a nuetral ground thats a safety net for them to plan without the thalmor looking over thier shoulders and been able to spend more time repairing and rebuilding its cities and military.
Cmon the imperials are supposed to be the top notch diplomats and one of the best understanding of polotics and military stradegy.
it basically boiled down to you are mine and im not gonna let you go no matter what, when it could have been handled so much more professionally and beneficiary to their cause.
The empjre to me has made to many mistakes and unfortauntly, retribution for those mistakes dont always come at optuned times but rather when it would hurt the most.

You can't think of the war as just a simple army vs army war. The Dominion seeks to unmake reality. Talos is the only thing keeping that from happening. If Talos worship is banished, the world will become unmade.

Thats true but to be fair I dont think theres any information in the game of skyrim for people who are new to know that.

The one person I would support to be the next high king is Baalgruf the Greater. He is a natural leader, cares about his people, and seems to be very capable, and those close to him are every bit as loyal to him as Ulfric's people are to him, and all this without the racism and jingoism. Trouble is, there's no way to convey that to him, and he doesn't step up on his own. He has to have a legitimate claim, his ancestor was high king Olaf One-Eye. I see this as Bethesda not dropping the ball so much as Bethesda not realizing or caring that the ball could be picked up in the first place.

My second choice for high king is... me. First Dragonborn since Martin Septim, etc., etc., etc. Savior of the friggin' world. All in all, not a bad resume. So, give us a third choice, guys, either Baalgruf or the Dragonborn. Besides, a two-sided war is boring. How much more fun and exciting could it get than building your own army, taking over forts and towns, persuading people to join your cause, training your people, finding qualified people to do the day to day operations, in short, creating something new. And maybe throw a few dragons into the mix as your air force.

When I first started playing Skyrim, I chose the Empire, and played it through to its bitter end. Did the same my second time around. But the more I played, the more I came to admire the Stormcloaks, and began to have doubts about the Empire. Yeah, okay, they tried to behead me, but that's what Empires do. Round 'em up and kill 'em all. Now, I always side with the Stormcloaks, but only because there's no third option aside from not doing the quest line at all.

And here's the thing about that: the Empire is responsible for its decision. I've seen a lot of arguments about the WGC and the end of the Great War and whether or not the Empire should've kept fighting or was in a position to keep fighting, anolyses of who had what forces and could've done what, was the Dominion really that strong, did the Empire make the best possible decision for the majority of its people, should they have made more of an effort to rebuild and fight the Dominion again sooner, yada yada yada... and at the end of the day, I really don't care.

Had I been in the Emperor's position at the time, knowing what he knew about the situation, I might've made the same decision. I don't know. The point is, the decision was made and decisions have consequences. Every decision, every action, has the potential for "good" and "bad" fallout somewhere down the road. That's just life. Maybe it really was the best the Empire could do at the time, but it doesn't change the fact that by doing it they set the stage for what is happening now.

It's not like they can just say, oh sorry Hammerfell & Skyrim, we did the best we could do for the Empire as a whole unfortunately you got screwed over in the deal, but hey, no hard feelings, right? Of course there are going to be hard feelings and then some, and justifiably so. Even if the WGC really and truly was the "best" they could do at the time, it does not mean that the people who got the raw end of that deal are wrong or irrational or out of line because they feel like they got screwed over when, you know, they actually DID get screwed over.

Lol, every time I see the argument that the secessionists in Skyrim should just be patient and wait and wait and wait and wait some more until the Empire is "ready" to take it to the Dominion again... all I can think of, for some reason, is that joke sign that says "The beatings will continue until morale improves." What's the famous quote? "Justice delayed is justice denied?" Well if some people feel that justice has been too long delayed, I can't fault them for that.