Helping Mr. House : Fallout: New Vegas

» Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:13 am

Hold on a second, House failed to deceive, lie or even attempt to manipulate? The first thing he tells the Courier is that he is special, and present him/her a presidential suite. He creating an illusion that the Courier is working with, not under, or far under him; just like how he allows NCR to "annex" the Strip. What about Courier 4? I doubt he is killed by escaped convicts right in front of the Mojave Express Office.

It's not an illusion, really. One of the things I like about him is that he doesn't lie....part of the reason he won't talk to the NCR is that he plans to screw them hard and doesn't want to be accused of being treacherous after he does it. He needs a human agent that can go places and do things he cannot do himself via his network or a Securitron. That was to be Benny, but fortunately for House Benny showed his true nature too soon. If he had waited instead, House would have summoned him to the Lucky 38 and given him that chip himself. By the time the Courier reaches the Strip, he/she has proven that they can get things done....that they, indeed, are special, and worth the risk House takes by allowing you to be close enough to be able to kill him. You could consider "The House Always Wins!" and "All or Nothing" to be an extended audition to be his Right Hand. Success means you're hired....and from some of his hints if you're willing to be boxed up like he is eventually you stand to inherit his Empire when his meat body finally gives out.

And why would he bother to kill any of the other Couriers? They knew nothing and were carrying junk. Once they delivered thier trinket House could care less what became of them, and even Benny knew who his target was...the others were of no use to him. He probably got shot by the Powder Gangers when he came to Primm to get his delivery bonus from Nash.

I highly doubt Benny have the ability to program a bug which can freely tap into House's network without him noticing when Emily's bug fail entirely. House is either aware of or created Yesman and use him to monitor Benny (since he knows a lot more inside the Tops than Gomorrah and Ultra Luxe). I would fully expect the "assertive" program is a backup of House himself.

Yes-Man, as it is a re-programmed Securitron, was a legitimate resource on the Network unlike Emily's tap so it's possible it escaped detection.....but it is certainly possible House allowed it to exist and used Yes-Man to keep tabs on Benny. But if that were the case, why did he let the plan go down rather than just remotely terminating Benny with Yes-Man's on-board weapons or even just give him false information? The chip is the embodiment of his Dream, he would not have played games with it. If he knew Benny was betraying him...and Yes-Man lets you know it gave Benny everything he needed to find the Courier....he would have made sure Benny would not have been in a position to intercept the Chip, probably by setting a trap in the Wasteland then giving him false info designed to lure him into it. I wouldn't be at all surprised if House uploaded himself to the Network as a backup if he could find no on worthy to succeed him..wouldn't that be a surprise for the Courier if the backup was activated at some point?

» Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:57 pm

Hold on a second, House failed to deceive, lie or even attempt to manipulate? The first thing he tells the Courier is that he is special, and present him/her a presidential suite. He creating an illusion that the Courier is working with, not under, or far under him; just like how he allows NCR to "annex" the Strip. What about Courier 4? I doubt he is killed by escaped convicts right in front of the Mojave Express Office.

I highly doubt Benny have the ability to program a bug which can freely tap into House's network without him noticing when Emily's bug fail entirely. House is either aware of or created Yesman and use him to monitor Benny (since he knows a lot more inside the Tops than Gomorrah and Ultra Luxe). I would fully expect the "assertive" program is a backup of House himself.

You're saying that the courier outside of the Mojave Express was killed by House? It makes significantly more sense that he was killed by the convicts, or were the sherriff and his wife also killed by House and not the convicts? Benny didn't have the ability to reprogram the Securitron, that's why he had Emily do, and Yes Man has access because all securitrons are connected to House's mainframe.

» Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:04 am

Then I think it's a straight difference of opinion, I find it hard to see House as easily corruptable (if you know Watchmen, think of Veidt) because of his traits and lack of needs. Unlike most men he does not gain pleasure from base things, he cannot eat good food, enjoy good drink or even good company. The man is unassailable by normal means, the only thing which he wants is money and that to turn into economy. To take money for corrupt means would be foolish (assuming the person is too inept to obtain post or status without corruption while you may gain money you then have an inept employee) so it's really hard to see him being corrupt.
The men under him? Well I would think it would be less corrupt than most institutions but the idea of it being entirely free of corruption is implausible, though not impossible.

He is extremely wealthy but he gives you a lot, again in the ending slide he offers your every desire, maybe part of that is him trying to keep you (I mean let's face it, the Courier stares down two entire armies and a number of tribes/gangs, I would NOT want to screw with them) but in the ending slide it says he has pride in you. It is favour for your good work and trust? It's trust from moment one, he allows you into the Lucky 38, trusting you not to go ahead and murder him. He lets you live there, again close to his heart. He trusts you with his life and with a lot of his work. Admittedly anything beyond the game is mere speculation but it's not hard to see you being his right hand man, you are, after all, his sought out protege now.

As it is I'm with Martyr. I do dislike this ideal that man should share wealth simply because we want it. If a man acquires his wealth through illicit means then yes, I would get behind that, more to strip the person than to give to others but if a man works their [censored] off and through dedication and simply being better makes more money than you?

Get over it.

We work, we progress, we make our own way in life, there's no reason why with two able men, one should supply the other. It makes no sense, it makes even less if the person is forced to supply because he's better.
The biggest problem with pure capitalism like this, the capitalism that House embodies, is corruption, nepotism and cheating. Those three mean men who are lesser get more, while men who are greater don't. Remove the three and we each make our own way.

Some people are smarter, some people are faster, some stronger, some wittier. That's life, no way should better people be punished because those around them are inept.

First, I don't believe people have to share their wealth; I am merely pointing out all Courier's desire is nothing but bogus of House's wealth. If you are indeed his righthand men, why wouldn't he let you replace Benny and take over the Chairmen? sure with the whole gang the Courier wouldn't have to pull off all the superman stunts. A men can have pride in his trashbin just because it can fill up more then he would expected, surely how the Courier survived the Mojave amuses House. As for placing Courier close to his heart...I am sorry, but you don't get to see him face to face until you heard from Yesman about the power of the Platinum Chip and force in the control room yourself.

Second, "corruption" isn't necessarily bring by desire...one form of "corruption" is to have a system within/bypass/undermine the know system. As a businessman, there would be moments you need to undermine the system to hold on your deal. Another form of "corruption" is people get lost while pursuing their vision. One thing that no House supporter deny so far is that the Great War didn't struck House's heart, House shake off the Great War just like his laser defenses shake off the nukes; he took it all too lightly, not recognizing how limited motive only result in narrow vision. House's vision is very narrow, his plan is as simple as humanity sure can pickup where they have stopped and continue. Randyan's reason is drawn from their vision, and those visions often fail to consider others would could not see the same picture.

It's not an illusion, really. One of the things I like about him is that he doesn't lie....part of the reason he won't talk to the NCR is that he plans to screw them hard and doesn't want to be accused of being treacherous after he does it. He needs a human agent that can go places and do things he cannot do himself via his network or a Securitron. That was to be Benny, but fortunately for House Benny showed his true nature too soon. If he had waited instead, House would have summoned him to the Lucky 38 and given him that chip himself. By the time the Courier reaches the Strip, he/she has proven that they can get things done....that they, indeed, are special, and worth the risk House takes by allowing you to be close enough to be able to kill him. You could consider "The House Always Wins!" and "All or Nothing" to be an extended audition to be his Right Hand. Success means you're hired....and from some of his hints if you're willing to be boxed up like he is eventually you stand to inherit his Empire when his meat body finally gives out.

While I agree the part about Benny, I don't with the Courier's part. The courier is watched by Victor throughout his journey, and like mention above, you don't really know how to kill him until you see Yesman. Placing the Courier at Lucky 38 is obviously to monitor him/her, as well as comforting him/her that they living under the same roof.

And why would he bother to kill any of the other Couriers? They knew nothing and were carrying junk. Once they delivered thier trinket House could care less what became of them, and even Benny knew who his target was...the others were of no use to him. He probably got shot by the Powder Gangers when he came to Primm to get his delivery bonus from Nash.

All six package is delivered to different locations. While the dice Courier Four carry is suppose to be a decoy...who knows if House need to cover his trails?

Yes-Man, as it is a re-programmed Securitron, was a legitimate resource on the Network unlike Emily's tap so it's possible it escaped detection.....but it is certainly possible House allowed it to exist and used Yes-Man to keep tabs on Benny. But if that were the case, why did he let the plan go down rather than just remotely terminating Benny with Yes-Man's on-board weapons or even just give him false information? The chip is the embodiment of his Dream, he would not have played games with it. If he knew Benny was betraying him...and Yes-Man lets you know it gave Benny everything he needed to find the Courier....he would have made sure Benny would not have been in a position to intercept the Chip, probably by setting a trap in the Wasteland then giving him false info designed to lure him into it. I wouldn't be at all surprised if House uploaded himself to the Network as a backup if he could find no on worthy to succeed him..wouldn't that be a surprise for the Courier if the backup was activated at some point?

If House kill Benny in his suite with a Securitron, it would only force the Chairmen to revolt or House to exterminate them; either way it would hurt New Vegas and his plans.

Just because House try to prevent Benny from intercept the Courier, doesn't mean Benny couldn't avoid it. In fact, House has advantage while Benny is not aware his plan is discovered.

» Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:38 am

First, I don't believe people have to share their wealth; I am merely pointing out all Courier's desire is nothing but bogus of House's wealth. If you are indeed his righthand men, why wouldn't he let you replace Benny and take over the Chairmen? sure with the whole gang the Courier wouldn't have to pull off all the superman stunts. A men can have pride in his trashbin just because it can fill up more then he would expected, surely how the Courier survived the Mojave amuses House. As for placing Courier close to his heart...I am sorry, but you don't get to see him face to face until you heard from Yesman about the power of the Platinum Chip and force in the control room yourself.

Second, "corruption" isn't necessarily bring by desire...one form of "corruption" is to have a system within/bypass/undermine the know system. As a businessman, there would be moments you need to undermine the system to hold on your deal. Another form of "corruption" is people get lost while pursuing their vision. One thing that no House supporter deny so far is that the Great War didn't struck House's heart, House shake off the Great War just like his laser defenses shake off the nukes; he took it all too lightly, not recognizing how limited motive only result in narrow vision. House's vision is very narrow, his plan is as simple as humanity sure can pickup where they have stopped and continue. Randyan's reason is drawn from their vision, and those visions often fail to consider others would could not see the same picture.

The chairmen aren't his gang. They're a tribe who existed before House, he has no say over who rules them, he has little say in what they do. Indeed in their own casinos the families rule supreme, that's the price House had to pay in order to grant Vegas their protection from the incoming NCR. Without them, the NCR would likely consider it a mild risk to attack the securitrons and take Vegas. He can't install you as their head because it's not up to him. Instead he gives you whatever you want, literally whatever you want. That's not a "well you did ok, here's some [censored], enjoy yourself" it's serious adoration of your work.
He can't speak to you face to face because it would kill him and it makes little sense to invite someone down, say "this is me, hi" then ask them to leave. He does install you in the Lucky 38, knowing you're a ridiculously powerful individual, where you could if you so wished (and many have) kill him.

It's not corruption to be narrow minded, it's narrow minded. I would say that he isn't though, he expects people to dust off, get up and soldier on but it's not like he thinks they all will.

» Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:21 pm

I can say about Mr.House really quickly. House=Adolf Hitler of NV.

» Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:19 am

First- No one in the Mojave is some tree hugging care bear, but House seems exceptionally cold. What with his casual order for you to mass murder the BoS and him wiping out the kings, a gang helping freeside and supposedly the city he loved, because they MIGHT strong emphasis on might given the kings value of independence, help the NCR. And he stopped them making a relief effort for the people of Houses city. Sure now you will shout that the kings dont have to be killed off you can have them fight the NCR [fully trained soldiers, better armed and armoured] and house spares them. I accept that. But i judge on EVERY ending you get with him, every decision he makes, not just his best ending where the superman courier makes sure everything is right for him. House ordered the kings to be wiped out and thats my fault? Its his own damn decision. Sure i can make it better, but i carry the knowledge that without the courier that is what house would have done, that is the kind of guy house is

ncr, legion and yes man all orders you to kill house, in cold blood. ncr orders you to mass murder the BoS and gives to a mouth full if you make a alliance with 'em. Also let's take IRL gangs as a exempel, they might make a nighberhood safe for the people living there and supporting the gang but let's say the gang is violent towards illigal immigrans (the ncr refguees) wouldn't the local police force or leaders take steps to prevent the violence?

Third-I will accept that things are mostly better in New Vegas than in DC. But things are not that great. You see nipton and primm, and you get an idea of the kind of insecurity that the wasteland still has. Which sort of proves that just because people are in groups does not make them that much safer, when the fiends, CL, and powder gangers are around. Most of the towns and communities in New Vegas are still a stone throws away from being slaughtered and wiped out, Novac, CL gettitng ready to attack, Goodsprings, Powder gangers, Nipton, Destroyed, Primm, Taken over by convicts, Jacobstown, Attacked by the NCR mercenaries. People are still definetly fighting for their lives out there.

If you support house the reasons for those towns being wiped out leaves. It's because of the legion and ncr that it happens, take them out of the picture and mojave is basiclly a safe place. The fiends get wiped out by the securitrons and the region is very safe.

» Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:34 am

The chairmen aren't his gang. They're a tribe who existed before House, he has no say over who rules them, he has little say in what they do. Indeed in their own casinos the families rule supreme, that's the price House had to pay in order to grant Vegas their protection from the incoming NCR. Without them, the NCR would likely consider it a mild risk to attack the securitrons and take Vegas. He can't install you as their head because it's not up to him. Instead he gives you whatever you want, literally whatever you want. That's not a "well you did ok, here's some [censored], enjoy yourself" it's serious adoration of your work.
He can't speak to you face to face because it would kill him and it makes little sense to invite someone down, say "this is me, hi" then ask them to leave. He does install you in the Lucky 38, knowing you're a ridiculously powerful individual, where you could if you so wished (and many have) kill him.

It's not corruption to be narrow minded, it's narrow minded. I would say that he isn't though, he expects people to dust off, get up and soldier on but it's not like he thinks they all will.

The Chairmen are actually quite loyal to House; when you talk to Swank about Benny's deed, he repays "Is Benny going to underhand House like this?", and give you full access to the Tops, and bypass security checks. But if Benny is kill without the evidence gather by or sliver tongue of the Courier, they could only assume House have no place for them and revolt. But of course, if they can run business as usually, the three families wouldn't care who guard the Strip gate.

NCR wouldn't "siege" Vegas because the a) New Vegas Campaign wasn't the top priority; B) of Securitrons are still a considerable force; c) Caesar's Legion.

If House really trust the Courier, he would led the Courier into the control room and let him see through his capsule, which is what I mean by "face to face", if bacteria is such a problem.

It is corruption when House is driven by his narrow minded vision and that vision alone, as House would to do anything to maintain his vision, bypassing the system.

» Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:31 am

I can say about Mr.House really quickly. House=Adolf Hitler of NV.

Wait, what now? the H-word has been mentioned?

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/342/1/c/abandon_thread_by_wernette-d34hyzz.gif

» Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:53 am

No, because had The Courier not interviened in The Kings lives, one would be led to believe Pacer would still lead the gang to go to war.

Forgive my vulgarity, but that logic is [censored]. They could have Shelter as they wish, yet, go into Freeside, count how many buildings are boarded up, unused. Why? Because mostly everyone in Freeside is lazy, hoping someone will be a bleeding heart and enrich their lives. Also, if you're going to try and use 'he says its for the best' and use that as the base of your faulty logic, we can also argue how the game dialogue says you can take over Vegas, yet the slides simply go 'NOPE ITS UNRULED LOL'. Simply put, you're twisting words the wrong way.

Right, and that's what House is doing, fighting for his life. Who is the foreign invader? NCR and Caesars Legion. Who's the saliant threat due to their terrorist and raider ways? The Brotherhood. The fact of the matter is, we only see short term slides. But see, if you help Primm under NCR rule, but help House, he sends Securitrons to tax the town and PROTECT IT. Which show's he obviously cares for those under his rule. Know what NCR does? Taxes you and says 'Lol, can't, got bad guys to fight'.

They are. Notice how many drunks, druggies, and all around layabouts are just peddling for caps in Freeside? Not to mention the thugs who [censored] and kill people. It's filled with Parasites. Also, There is strength in numbers, do you know why no one is strong enough? Because no one is willing to risk their chances for a better life, which is what life is all about, risks for greater reward. Living until 100% stable chances occur is only going to keep you held back.]]

Listen, does house not order his securitrons to kill the kings if they help the NCR for a full relief effort for the people? You keep saying you can save the kings but that means nothing. What the whole, house kills of kings scene, AND I KNOW ITS OPTIONAL BUT IT TELLS US WHAT KIND OF LEADER HOUSE IS, tells us that House is capable of making such a stupid and unnessesary decision as wiping out the kings.

Everyone is freeside is lazy? That logic is completly [censored] and i hope you realised that after posting. They went to freeside because it is safe from the powder gangers, CL, raiders, fiends ect ect. You cant exactly get a job in an post apocalyptic wasteland. Many of the houses are borded up, probably because inside, its nothing but a wrecked ruin annd offfers nothing in the way of shelter. They sit around beggining for a chance in life, and any good and kind person would try to give them that chance.

House is way before fighting for his life. If house so wishes, he could simply sit tight with his securitrons, talk to the NCR ambassadors and tell them that he wants nothing more than some comfort, give the strip to the NCR and live his life peacefully. House wants more power, for the right or wrong reasons

House is probably more for the taxes than actually protecting people. Freeside represents this, hundreds of people dieing outside his walls and house just sits there. He has absolutly no good intentions, or maybe some far off. House is no better than NCR.

Ok, not everyone is a hero. Some people cant just fight hundreds of thugs singly handly and win. Why throw youre life away on that. Especially if you have a family who needs you desperatly. Just because they are too weak does NOT make them parasites. By your reconing, we should just send in the army to every slum in the world, and kill them all. That would rid the world of parasites. Yeah right, Sounds like something house would do. And thats not a compliment

» Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:24 pm

ncr, legion and yes man all orders you to kill house, in cold blood. ncr orders you to mass murder the BoS and gives to a mouth full if you make a alliance with 'em. Also let's take IRL gangs as a exempel, they might make a nighberhood safe for the people living there and supporting the gang but let's say the gang is violent towards illigal immigrans (the ncr refguees) wouldn't the local police force or leaders take steps to prevent the violence?

First the NCR is not one person, its a whole system. Just because Colonel Moore is a intolerant idiot, does not mean NCR are. Ambassador Crocker was meant to have wanted to ally with the BoS. But House dosnt care about freeside, time and time again, if he did he would send in a couple of securitrons and help them. Freeside is where house put the poorer people, who used to live in the strip and dumped them, killing a couple. You can sort of see the kind of guy he is. He is just afraid the kings might ally with the NCR [which is just plain stupid[

If you support house the reasons for those towns being wiped out leaves. It's because of the legion and ncr that it happens, take them out of the picture and mojave is basiclly a safe place. The fiends get wiped out by the securitrons and the region is very safe.

Primm-Convicts.
Goodsprings-Powder gangers.
Still not very safe. Sure its safer, but you would get the same results with any of the main factions. CL is the best for security,

» Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:08 pm

Mr. House isn't the man that looks to help every single bum on the streets, but looks at the big picture. You mention that you should give money to people in Freeside, such as the junkies that can go and get more chems or maybe to some thugs? The people in Freeside create their own problems.

Not every bum on the street? The majority of people in freeside are bums.
And not everyone in freeeside is a junkie or thug :brokencomputer:

» Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:48 am

Listen, does house not order his securitrons to kill the kings if they help the NCR for a full relief effort for the people? You keep saying you can save the kings but that means nothing. What the whole, house kills of kings scene, AND I KNOW ITS OPTIONAL BUT IT TELLS US WHAT KIND OF LEADER HOUSE IS, tells us that House is capable of making such a stupid and unnessesary decision as wiping out the kings.

-sigh- I've tried relentlessly to explain why he does it. Let me see if I can explain this as simply as possible so I don't confuse you (which I think is why you've failed to understand the whole Kings issue.) The issue with The Kings isn't that they are helping people, it's the fact that NCR is behind it. Why is it NCR that causes their demise? Because anyone who knows Fallout knows the NCR won't spit you if you're on fire and an outsider. The NCR doesn't play charity out of the kindness of their hearts. The only reason the NCR wanted to do it is because they weren't expecting House to play his hand and keep control of Vegas. Now, why is this issue a saliant one? Because if the NCR were to do this relief effort anyway what does this do? It gives the NCR the chance to snake in their propaganda and win over supporters, causing Vegas to become highly tense with Vegas supporters and NCR supporters.

Everyone is freeside is lazy? That logic is completly [censored] and i hope you realised that after posting. They went to freeside because it is safe from the powder gangers, CL, raiders, fiends ect ect. You cant exactly get a job in an post apocalyptic wasteland. Many of the houses are borded up, probably because inside, its nothing but a wrecked ruin annd offfers nothing in the way of shelter. They sit around beggining for a chance in life, and any good and kind person would try to give them that chance.

How is my logic flawed? The buildings are ruined? Repair them. They don't have jobs? MAKE jobs. What's the easiest way for them to make money? Selling chems and six. Laziness to the highest extent

House is way before fighting for his life. If house so wishes, he could simply sit tight with his securitrons, talk to the NCR ambassadors and tell them that he wants nothing more than some comfort, give the strip to the NCR and live his life peacefully. House wants more power, for the right or wrong reasons.

As long as House was given complete control of The Strip as an economic untaxed zone of NCR, sure thats a nice idea. But you forget. NCR in Shady Sands is rampant with corruption in it's politicians, it's only a matter of time before some guys in NCR congress will demand House hand over all property, as the NCR has a nasty habit of doing.

House is probably more for the taxes than actually protecting people. Freeside represents this, hundreds of people dieing outside his walls and house just sits there. He has absolutly no good intentions, or maybe some far off. House is no better than NCR.

Hm? Primm is taxed, Freeside is uncontrolled. Why should House be forced to do anything for anyone? He's done alot for the Vegas region already.

Ok, not everyone is a hero. Some people cant just fight hundreds of thugs singly handly and win. Why throw youre life away on that. Especially if you have a family who needs you desperatly. Just because they are too weak does NOT make them parasites. By your reconing, we should just send in the army to every slum in the world, and kill them all. That would rid the world of parasites. Yeah right, Sounds like something house would do. And thats not a compliment

You're making a hybrid hyperbole AND strawman argument. That's not what I am saying at all. But think about it. What happens if The Courier rallies Goodsprings? They fending off the Powder Gangers, Westside has it's own Militia. Freeside is the definition of laziness, all they do is scamper about but they make no efforts to rebuild. Look at Westside though, crops, Housing, a mini army? These are the kind of people Freeside should be. If I had it my way, I'd have started kicking people in Freeside into gear, have them clean out those abandoned buildings and open up shops, produce their own economy, kick out the chem dealers.

» Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:29 am

[quote name='Colonel Martyr' timestamp='1299099000' post='17266180']
-sigh- I've tried relentlessly to explain why he does it. Let me see if I can explain this as simply as possible so I don't confuse you (which I think is why you've failed to understand the whole Kings issue.) The issue with The Kings isn't that they are helping people, it's the fact that NCR is behind it. Why is it NCR that causes their demise? Because anyone who knows Fallout knows the NCR won't spit you if you're on fire and an outsider. The NCR doesn't play charity out of the kindness of their hearts. The only reason the NCR wanted to do it is because they weren't expecting House to play his hand and keep control of Vegas. Now, why is this issue a saliant one? Because if the NCR were to do this relief effort anyway what does this do? It gives the NCR the chance to snake in their propaganda and win over supporters, causing Vegas to become highly tense with Vegas supporters and NCR supporters.

How is my logic flawed? The buildings are ruined? Repair them. They don't have jobs? MAKE jobs. What's the easiest way for them to make money? Selling chems and six. Laziness to the highest extent

As long as House was given complete control of The Strip as an economic untaxed zone of NCR, sure thats a nice idea. But you forget. NCR in Shady Sands is rampant with corruption in it's politicians, it's only a matter of time before some guys in NCR congress will demand House hand over all property, as the NCR has a nasty habit of doing

Hm? Primm is taxed, Freeside is uncontrolled. Why should House be forced to do anything for anyone? He's done alot for the Vegas region already.

You're making a hybrid hyperbole AND strawman argument. That's not what I am saying at all. But think about it. What happens if The Courier rallies Goodsprings? They fending off the Powder Gangers, Westside has it's own Militia. Freeside is the definition of laziness, all they do is scamper about but they make no efforts to rebuild. Look at Westside though, crops, Housing, a mini army? These are the kind of people Freeside should be. If I had it my way, I'd have started kicking people in Freeside into gear, have them clean out those abandoned buildings and open up shops, produce their own economy, kick out the chem dealers

My argument
So House wont let the NCR help freeside because he is afraid the people of freeside with like the NCR. Its not like house could actually use all his recourses and robots to build freeside and build a good reputation for himself, no he had to wipe out the kings who were trying to help freeside. Maybe the NCR were working to gain support, but did house really have to wipe out a faction that was helping freeside get on its feet, build jobs [like you want them to do] and make it actually a decent place to live. It seems like a stupid reaction to something small like the NCR becoming popular in freeside. All rulers should treat their people kindly or at least with respect, to stop revolutions. House didnt and the people of freeside dont like him for it. So when another faction comes and begins to help freeside with the kings, house wipes out the faction that actually kept order in the streets. Thus increasing the hatred for him in freeside. The way this is going, i wouldnt be suprised if the people of freeside rebelled and attacked the strip. Thats where house is going.

Its flawed because you fail to take into account the complexity. Repair men? The people of freeside dont know how to, what would they use to repair the homes? Most factories that made decent materials for that have been destroyed. How can they make jobs? Most people simply dont know how to. Which is why they HAVE to sell chems and six to support them and any relatives of theirs.

Why would the NCR push over House? They have control of the strip in everything but name, they know house is clever and his securitrons pack a punch, and while the politicians of the NCR are corrupt, they arnt stupid.

No he hasnt. He created a few casinos filled with cannibals, men who treat their prostitues like slaves, and the tops. He created more unnessesary luxury for the rich while the poor starve. Freeside and westside are part of new vegas and they are in terrible condition. Outside new vegas is filled with fiends.House did really well

Again you fail to take into account the complexity of those things. Militias are hard to create. Where would you get the rifles. How would you train them? Would thugs get into the militia and use the training and weapons against the citizens of freeeside. Do they have time, when they are not selling drugs or six to feed themselves or their families. With thugs roaming the streets, and many of the citizens took drugs to get away from the constant misery of their lives, and are now addicted, how could it be easy? It tells what kind of guy you are, that you call everyone unemployed and living in slums, lazy and stupid. No average citizen is a hero who knows how to use a gun, and is brave enough. And its likely, that if you kill one thug or drug dealer, the rest will kill you in youre sleep

» Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:33 pm

I just...

Do you really think House is evil purely because he isn't handing his wealth over to beggars?

Seriously?

Do you, sirs, men with computers and presumably this game, men with access to luxuries, do you hold a man in disregard because he does not share his wealth with men who don't have it?

Where is your wealth sharing? How is it you are able to write on a computer when men around you starve? Why are you not out there giving everything to the bums and drug addicts of life?

Oh, right, hypocrisy.

The Chairmen are actually quite loyal to House; when you talk to Swank about Benny's deed, he repays "Is Benny going to underhand House like this?", and give you full access to the Tops, and bypass security checks. But if Benny is kill without the evidence gather by or sliver tongue of the Courier, they could only assume House have no place for them and revolt. But of course, if they can run business as usually, the three families wouldn't care who guard the Strip gate.

NCR wouldn't "siege" Vegas because the a) New Vegas Campaign wasn't the top priority; of Securitrons are still a considerable force; c) Caesar's Legion.

If House really trust the Courier, he would led the Courier into the control room and let him see through his capsule, which is what I mean by "face to face", if bacteria is such a problem.

It is corruption when House is driven by his narrow minded vision and that vision alone, as House would to do anything to maintain his vision, bypassing the system.

While this is true you are still not a member of their tribe, how accepting do you think a tribe (highly insular, highly political) would be to someone who murders the previous head and is then instated by the non tribal who rules them? I can't see them accepting you with open arms as the new boss, Swank is very friendly to you and in general most of the chairmen appear amiable however I think it's a stretch to suggest they'd take anything.
Besides, you expect them to follow you into battle? How effective a fighting force, a single tribe. They could not help take the fort, an army would be killed before it got close, they could not help at the sub station, again the NCR would intercept them, they could not help stop the assassination, they'd be too suspect and not allowed in, they could not help stop the Omertas, it would just be a tribal war in the heart of Vegas.
There is little they could do if they followed the courier to war, which I highly doubt they would.

The NCR make it plain they want Vegas and it's pretty damned obvious that were it not for it's defences they'd have taken it. The three families are of course larger than represented in game, they would make a troublesome opponent but the unupgraded securitrons? Hardly, the NCR would roll over them.

Again there's nothing to gain "Hi this is my body, can you please never ever come near this case again? Kthnxbai" It's illogical, you have no need for it, it's not like you have an explosive collar around your neck he can detonate at any time, this is a business arrangement, not a lovey dovey hippy fest.

» Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:05 am

House could care less about the Kings, the only good thing they did was help Freeside get better organized. Once House has dealt with both the NCR and the Legion he doesn't need the Kings because he can take care of Freeside by himself. If the Kings take down the NCR then House keeps them alive out of loyality.

House is the only good choice here. You may not agree with his methods all the time but look at the alternative.

» Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:29 am

-sigh- I've tried relentlessly to explain why he does it. Let me see if I can explain this as simply as possible so I don't confuse you (which I think is why you've failed to understand the whole Kings issue.) The issue with The Kings isn't that they are helping people, it's the fact that NCR is behind it. Why is it NCR that causes their demise? Because anyone who knows Fallout knows the NCR won't spit you if you're on fire and an outsider. The NCR doesn't play charity out of the kindness of their hearts. The only reason the NCR wanted to do it is because they weren't expecting House to play his hand and keep control of Vegas. Now, why is this issue a saliant one? Because if the NCR were to do this relief effort anyway what does this do? It gives the NCR the chance to snake in their propaganda and win over supporters, causing Vegas to become highly tense with Vegas supporters and NCR supporters.

Condescension really doesn't help your argument. The only reason the NCR even has a chance to win over Freeside is because they are the only ones bidding. The attitude of the locals is generally anti-NCR to begin with, House could easily have won them over and shut out the NCR long before....all it would have taken is some caps and assistance. He chose deliberately to let Freeside fester...to him it's a filter to strain out people he doesn't want on the Strip. If not for the Kings and FoTA the place would be a total mess.

How is my logic flawed? The buildings are ruined? Repair them. They don't have jobs? MAKE jobs. What's the easiest way for them to make money? Selling chems and six. Laziness to the highest extent

Freeside is a war zone, until it's stabilized no one is building anything there unless they can afford the guns to defend it up front....like the Garrets or Van Graffs. Mick and Ralph are only able to operate because the King protects them.

As long as House was given complete control of The Strip as an economic untaxed zone of NCR, sure thats a nice idea. But you forget. NCR in Shady Sands is rampant with corruption in it's politicians, it's only a matter of time before some guys in NCR congress will demand House hand over all property, as the NCR has a nasty habit of doing.

Are you saying he wouldn't have his own lobbyists in Shady Sands? Puh-leese, Shady Sands isn't jack compared to the Pre-war Washington Beltway.....he would be one of the biggest sharks in the pool. He would be the natural leader of what industrial lobby there is in the NCR. He also probably has more in assets than the top ten Brahmin Barons or Agricorps combined, he can buy politicians just as readily as they can. I suspect that's why Kimball, Oliver and Moore are so eager to top him, the idea of House getting involved in doings in Shady Sands terrifies thier corporate backers.

Hm? Primm is taxed, Freeside is uncontrolled. Why should House be forced to do anything for anyone? He's done alot for the Vegas region already.

Not saying he should be forced, but he should have done it for the same reason the Courier fetches things, and helps people drive off thier tormenters...so they will support him against his enemies. House hasn't done much of anything for anybody....aside from the Families...the NCR got the Dam operational, got the water mains operational, got the roads at least somewhat passable. Hardly anyone wants the NCR there......he could have spread the wealth around a bit, and become the face of resistance to the NCR. But he prefers to concentrate on his dream and ignore the suffering people around him who could be recruited and trained to provide the workers he will need to bring it about.

You're making a hybrid hyperbole AND strawman argument. That's not what I am saying at all. But think about it. What happens if The Courier rallies Goodsprings? They fending off the Powder Gangers, Westside has it's own Militia. Freeside is the definition of laziness, all they do is scamper about but they make no efforts to rebuild. Look at Westside though, crops, Housing, a mini army? These are the kind of people Freeside should be. If I had it my way, I'd have started kicking people in Freeside into gear, have them clean out those abandoned buildings and open up shops, produce their own economy, kick out the chem dealers.

If I were House I'd have approached the King several years before and offered him the weapons and resources he needed to stabilize Freeside....and my recognition of the Kings as the de facto rulers of Freeside...in exchange for them looking out for my interests against the NCR and anyone else. For a relatively modest investment the NCR would be completely shut out, and once it was no longer a Free-Fire Zone Freeside would recover pretty rapidly. Why leave a political vacuum for the NCR to fill when I could fill it myself instead?

» Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:48 am

Damn you for catching me in my 'To argued out' phase. :cryvaultboy:

But to some it in short. Some of the things that involves ' how's and why's ' I can't answer. Why? Because it's a game, which I'm not using as a fall back arguement, but honestly, it's only a game and not real life, which I wish was real life because then I wouldnt be set to 4-5 dialogue choices and I could ask anything I wished. I need the other House defenders to help this debate while I recharge my arguing lasers. :sad:

» Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:06 pm

Well, this is a lively thread. Colonel, you convinced me a while back. I'm loving Mr. House. My order is now NCR, Mr. House, Yes Man, Caesar's Legion. Thanks, all.

» Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:26 pm

Freeside is a war zone, until it's stabilized no one is building anything there unless they can afford the guns to defend it up front....like the Garrets or Van Graffs. Mick and Ralph are only able to operate because the King protects them.

Are you saying he wouldn't have his own lobbyists in Shady Sands? Puh-leese, Shady Sands isn't jack compared to the Pre-war Washington Beltway.....he would be one of the biggest sharks in the pool. He would be the natural leader of what industrial lobby there is in the NCR. He also probably has more in assets than the top ten Brahmin Barons or Agricorps combined, he can buy politicians just as readily as they can. I suspect that's why Kimball, Oliver and Moore are so eager to top him, the idea of House getting involved in doings in Shady Sands terrifies thier corporate backers.

Not saying he should be forced, but he should have done it for the same reason the Courier fetches things, and helps people drive off thier tormenters...so they will support him against his enemies. House hasn't done much of anything for anybody....aside from the Families...the NCR got the Dam operational, got the water mains operational, got the roads at least somewhat passable. Hardly anyone wants the NCR there......he could have spread the wealth around a bit, and become the face of resistance to the NCR. But he prefers to concentrate on his dream and ignore the suffering people around him who could be recruited and trained to provide the workers he will need to bring it about.

If I were House I'd have approached the King several years before and offered him the weapons and resources he needed to stabilize Freeside....and my recognition of the Kings as the de facto rulers of Freeside...in exchange for them looking out for my interests against the NCR and anyone else. For a relatively modest investment the NCR would be completely shut out, and once it was no longer a Free-Fire Zone Freeside would recover pretty rapidly. Why leave a political vacuum for the NCR to fill when I could fill it myself instead?

Freeside sin't a "warzone", it's simply heavily crime-ridden. They don't have to build a new skyscraqer, just tinker with some of the buildings around them; like the Cerulean building, and I've never seen a Freeside thug over near that area.

Why would House bother with the NCR politicians? If you kill House for the NCR, he calls them snakes. He doesn't really want to form political ties, he just wants their citizens to come spend money in Vegas.

Why waste his time helping the people in Freeside up to a point when they can help him? How many years would that take? Why cound't he find scientists in the Mojave Wasteland? Assuming Freeside was no longer so violent, you would still have chem dealers selling. Freeside wouldn't recover "pretty rapidly", you'd still have to deal with the Chem dealers.

What would stop the King from using those weapons and resources to better benefit the Kings than House? How do you know that it would only require a modest investment? What good does it do for House if the NCR is out of Freeside? I haven't exactly seen platoons patroling through it waiting for an oppurtunity to attack House.The NCR could still come in through the monorail too; so if he wanted to "shut out" the NCR, he could probably have disabled for some time and then keep them out there and at the main Vegas gate. The nhe wouldn't have to also cover all of the gates in Freeside against NCR forces.

» Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:34 am

[quote name='Hugga_Bear' timestamp='1299106975' post='17266984']
I just...

Do you really think House is evil purely because he isn't handing his wealth over to beggars?

Seriously?

Do you, sirs, men with computers and presumably this game, men with access to luxuries, do you hold a man in disregard because he does not share his wealth with men who don't have it?

Where is your wealth sharing? How is it you are able to write on a computer when men around you starve? Why are you not out there giving everything to the bums and drug addicts of life?

Oh, right, hypocrisy.

We dont claim to be helping mankind. Sure we dont help beggers on the streets starve, but nor do we step on normal innocent people and kill them, because they are in our way. House does

» Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:11 am

We dont claim to be helping mankind. Sure we dont help beggers on the streets starve, but nor do we step on normal innocent people and kill them, because they are in our way. House does

Who has House killed in cold blood? As far as I know th only people that he has had killed are people that fight him.

» Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:02 pm

People who lived in the strip, before house moved them out of their homes with his securitrons and killed quite a few. To make way for a bunch of casinos...

Talk to beatrix russel in freeside about it

The Kings, although you can avoid this

» Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:11 am

While this is true you are still not a member of their tribe, how accepting do you think a tribe (highly insular, highly political) would be to someone who murders the previous head and is then instated by the non tribal who rules them? I can't see them accepting you with open arms as the new boss, Swank is very friendly to you and in general most of the chairmen appear amiable however I think it's a stretch to suggest they'd take anything.
Besides, you expect them to follow you into battle? How effective a fighting force, a single tribe. They could not help take the fort, an army would be killed before it got close, they could not help at the sub station, again the NCR would intercept them, they could not help stop the assassination, they'd be too suspect and not allowed in, they could not help stop the Omertas, it would just be a tribal war in the heart of Vegas.
There is little they could do if they followed the courier to war, which I highly doubt they would.

1st, since the Chairmen are loyal to House, I don't see it too hard for them to accept the Courier as the head of "Operation House Vegas".

While the Fort mission is suppose to be a solitaire mission require all Courier's wits and subtlety, with extra man power s/he could set up distraction to ease the burden on Courier's Shoulder. As for helping against the Assassination, they could have blend in the crowd as extra eyes. Against the Omertas, they against can provide distraction and information.

That being said, this may make the game a bit too easy.

As for Battle for Hoover, I don't expect them to join in, but with the Chairmen helping maintain the order in the Strip helps.

The NCR make it plain they want Vegas and it's pretty damned obvious that were it not for it's defences they'd have taken it. The three families are of course larger than represented in game, they would make a troublesome opponent but the unupgraded securitrons? Hardly, the NCR would roll over them.

Mark II Securitrons upgrade only enable the use of Missile Racks on their shoulders and switch them to "solider" instead of "police". However they are as tough as (if not tougher than) Sentrybots, armed with 9mm machine gun, Gatling Laser and 40mm Grenade Laucher. Not to mention it would be hard to hold Hoover Dam being isolated.

Again there's nothing to gain "Hi this is my body, can you please never ever come near this case again? Kthnxbai" It's illogical, you have no need for it, it's not like you have an explosive collar around your neck he can detonate at any time, this is a business arrangement, not a lovey dovey hippy fest.

I think it would help a lot, actually. Seeing House lock in the casket, the Courier would see how much effort House have invested into his vision, and shown trust. And if House lead the Courier in the Control Room, sure the security system wouldn't be bypass and he would have the means to stop the Courier acting funny.

» Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:02 pm

Ok so after debating on these forums for a while the House vs. NCR debate comes down to this. Besides all the needless arguments about House killing tribals or the NCR helping slums let's get to the core.

You support House, you support a dicatator who is probably the smartest man alive. He claims he's not corrupted by power and the fact he's the most productive member of society means he should lead the said society. By his own merits House has remarkable acheivements and is a pure pragmatist. He has no mis-guided sense to help every beggar but instead aims to uplift society from the slavery and tribalism, into a space faring colonizing race; excedding the 2076 world.

On the other hand you have the NCR, which is a democratic republic made up of 700,000 people, the largest group in Fallout history. All the moral arguments about why they don't help the slum dwellers are easy to answer. Lack of resources, and besides it's irrelvent. The NCR is imperialistic but is that REALLY a bad thing in this context? The NCR government seeks resources for it's citizens, safety for it's citizens, and markets for it's citizens. The safety compotent it is the most important, with an army of slavers with a goal to bring down California and Nevada, the NCR must spread east or be destroyed. The fundamental moral problem faced is this; is it moral to force a man to be free? I say yes, for his childrens sake but that's basically what they are doing. Why let human rights be abused and the law be avioded simply becasue a man doesn't want to live in your nation? Simply because you have a democracy doesn't mean you can choose not to have a democracy. Even if 99 out of 100 people wish to give away their rights to a despot that doesn't mean they can take away a human right from the one who doesn't.

In my opinion the knowledge of the many is greater than the knowledge of the one, and the same goes for House. If it came to down to pure if NCR vs. House then NCR wins on that simple statement. A republic in control of the Mojave would be better than one man, no matter how smart he is, especially given how the ending slides play out if you choose the Independent ending anyway. But in a perfect world Kimball wouldn't of been president and House proper negotations could of taken place. The treaty of vegas itself was fine, except Camp Mccaran which in my opinion simply showed how incomptent the NCR are at protecting Vegas. Instead all resources should of went towards protecting I-15 for trade and fighting the Legion, but that's really a different discussion.

» Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:18 pm

In my opinion the knowledge of the many is greater than the knowledge of the one, and the same goes for House. If it came to down to pure if NCR vs. House then NCR wins on that simple statement. A republic in control of the Mojave would be better than one man, no matter how smart he is, especially given how the ending slides play out if you choose the Independent ending anyway. But in a perfect world Kimball wouldn't of been president and House proper negotations could of taken place. The treaty of vegas itself was fine, except Camp Mccaran which in my opinion simply showed how incomptent the NCR are at protecting Vegas. Instead all resources should of went towards protecting I-15 for trade and fighting the Legion, but that's really a different discussion.

Just because there are a lot of people in the NCR doesn't mean that they are smarter than House. Thomas Edison had a lot of people working for him, yet Nikola Tesla created better inventions and has had a more profound effect on the world. Numbers don't mean everything. I don't see what the ending slides have to do with this. Then you say the knowledge of the NCR is greater than Hous'es knowlegde, but say the NCR incompetent in its handling of Vegas.